Episode Transcription

00:00 Hey man, what's up? Have you ever heard of the shags? 00:06 What are you doing right now? 00:11 What are you- What is this? uh 00:18 Hey man, are you just like kidnapping this episode? I've already intro did I would have to do this? Have you ever heard of Joe Nassara? Oh my God, let me Google on real quick. So I hate that I did all this preparation for this for nothing. Oh, I felt bad when you were like I'm down on all these images. Hold on to stuff and I was like all right, that's all way I got it. 00:48 He's wearing a long sleeve. Oh, my teeth with hairy arm, baby. 01:00 Oh yeah, I got Alex to go so that counts things I learned last night. 01:19 Okay, so ah who is this? Jonah Sarah? Is this this guy that you keep telling me to do episodes about? No, this is it. Is this the guy that you keep telling me to do episodes about? No, Jonah Sarah is a journalist. Okay, he's okay. Put your laptop away. Okay, tell me more. Let's get a second here so I can make sure I get my images pulled up. Oh my gosh. Do you have pro presenter? Yeah. Do know how to do? Have you talked to Alex? Do you know how to do this? Oh, oh wow, 01:47 Oh wait, just Jaren know how to do anything is Jaren competent yeah buddy. Oh, don't worry about that crap. Okay, I'm not worrying okay, so what you show me a picture of him again. Let me see him. Let me guess what he does. Yeah. Can you guess what I just told you he does? This is like a journalist. Yeah, so this is this is Joe Yorker 02:14 This is Joe Nasser. He works for he's written for several things. The Esquire, GQ, Fortune, New York Times, right? Close. Did you think he was New York looking? He looks like he works for the New Yorker. He looks a little pretentious is why I'm saying he does look like he is wearing like a light brown suit jacket. He does look like a with a like librarian at a college, not a town library. Exactly like he's got a black vest, a light blue shirt and then this brown suit jacket. None of it matches. Yeah, 02:43 but he cool glasses and he's like in front of like the black screen like this is clear like a public access television and interview yeah thing right. So Jonah Sarah, you know he's written for different things. You typically business power structures kind of uh corruption yeah, so Jonah Sarah is he's a he's a columnist. He's a reporter. He 03:09 uh And by the 2000s, you know, he's respected. He's got a reputation. he's he exposes a lot of stories in the financial and healthcare, that kind of stuff. Right. So he's a successful reporter. So I mean, so this is the story you keep telling me. So he buys a home in the hamptons. Gosh. Right. And you know, I know something really funny about this. Genuinely, I'm not even exaggerating. I queued up that podcast. I was like, okay, I'm going to start this on the way home today. Today, I'm genuine. 03:37 genuinely. I was like on the way home from that's a different story. This is about Joe. The same. This is the story I guess. I guess if we're going to be honest, it's been about three and a half, maybe four years of you telling me to check this out. So I guess maybe it makes sense that you would jump the gun on me a little bit. Three years you think I've been telling you to tell you that story for three years. It's been a while. I don't know if in a while years, but that's a different story. It's been three years. Yeah, 04:03 it's actually been four years, but genuinely I was I not even exaggerate when I say that's what I was going to listen to on the way home from this. is about Joe Sarah. I was going to listen to this on the way home for this shoot and then I was going to because I figure we put out about a month before our next shoot. I was like I was going to open it up with this. I was looking forward to the moment where I do the big reveal. Maybe I'll still do it sure you could because this is about a different topic pretty funny. If you so Sarah buys a house in the Hamptons, he and his wife dawn. They moved to the Hamptons right 04:33 and and they live next to a guy named Isaac Stevens. The mailbox says Isaac Stevens and that guy's name is Ike Herpchkof isn't it yeah, so that's it something different. If you trust me, okay, so maybe I will listen to that other way. Oh sure, that's a different. don't know if I'm going to now the mailbox. I feel a little weird about it mailbox next door says Isaac Stevens and this is like this is a pretty you know the Hamptons are lavish right. This is where rich people name is on the mailbox, name on the house number 05:03 it a rich person thing to do. I mean the Hamptons yeah you got. I mean you know your neighbors, it's kind of like there's it's the side South Hamptons. You know is this this is the two thousands so hard it is when someone asks you what year it is yeah when you're not prepared. I am prepared so prepared what I'm saying though is Isaac Stevens house is like a party house. I'm locked in there's so many parties at this house and not like 05:29 not like rager parties yeah yeah is at this point he's let's see. Let me do the math. He's you know fifties so he's an older guy. saying you're saying these are like are these like these are like I mean dinner parties like Gatsby parties or like I know if like there's valet parking there's 05:49 This isn't like- Cool parties, there's big, it's not like just a back yard barbecue. is like- college parties. Yeah, it's not like ragers, but there's a lot of lavish parties next door and catered and important guests, like celebrities have shown up. Is Joe getting invited? Joe's not getting invited, but he just goes next door. know, and maybe that's kind of where this, he kind of gets this little, you know? And over time, he notices that there's, 06:17 there's a guy in a green polo shirt who works these events right. He notices the guy in a green polo shirt who is always taking out the trash. He's preparing food, he's offering guests drinks and this guy is obviously like a hired help. He's like a caretaker of the house right and so when when Isaac Stevens is not there, this guy is usually there taking care of the property stuff right. So this guy is out there to ruin the hedges. The groundskeeper is 06:47 And Joe goes over and so I said, what time our competition he conversation he goes, hey, you know, I've noticed you for the past couple of years. I've noticed that you, you take really good care of this property and all that. he goes, oh yeah, thanks man. He goes, what's your name? He goes, my name is Marty Markowitz. Okay. He was okay. Uh, in talking with Marty and he casually Marty at this point, Marty is, I'm gonna do the math. Sorry. Um, Marty's 60. 07:13 at this point, where body go to high school. This is this is July of two thousand and ten at this point, so he's lived next door to this house for several years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for almost ten years at this point, right. You ever watch summer house? No, what summer house summer house is this group of like young, hot New York singles at this point they're all married, but they're like and they go. They rent a house in the Hamptons every summer for the whole summer and then every weekend they just go out 07:41 and they stay there for the weekend every weekend and I bring this up for a couple reasons. One, I really like the show and I'm a little embarrassed about it. It's like a you know, it's trash reality, but it's not even trash reality. Like my wife sort of watching freaking love island. Yeah, that's any time I walk in living room, I was like you are filling your mind with crap. This is that is that's genuine. It's like reality. It's like not even like I enjoy some trash reality. I watched the sister wife show. Yeah, I love just dumb. 08:10 That is like, I don't even, I can't, whatever. Yeah, that's rough. This is not like that. This is kind of like a real housewives type show. And there are moments where it's pretty trashy, but there's a lot of it. That's just like, kind of connect with the characters and like you'd like to watch the, now follow some of them on social media, which I feel weird about. But anyways, all that to say, they rent this house in the Hamptons the whole summer. And I mean, they're splitting it like eight ways. And I mean, I guess at this point they got the show now and the show's probably paying for it. um 08:39 but I don't think it was a reason. think they were doing this on their own before uh and it's I don't know. Like I think it's good to do stuff like that. Well, the thing is that I've you and I talked recently about how I don't feel like I've invested in relationships and I watched that and I'm like I'm like man, it'd be nice to have a group of friends that you just go rent a house in the Hamptons with every weekend. I mean we I would move in every weekend, but like after our wedding, especially my birthday trip, we're so fun. 09:04 We were just like, why are we waiting for major events to do stuff like that? Like, for sure, let's just go share an Airbnb for a week. Yeah, a hundred percent. That was great. And I don't know. I loved that whole week and that I just I mean, and the bonus was like I married at the end, you know, but it's like, but like that's fair. Even before it was like, this is I love this. It was super fun. I talked to my counselor about that yesterday and I cried. We don't have to talk about that, but I did the Airbnb for my wedding. Well, you cried about it. Yeah, yeah, we talked about that in the after the fail. 09:34 I'm going to be honest with you. What did you cry? I never played on telling you that, but I here we are. I'll tell you we can talk about the out of the my dream. My hope is so this is this is a real like this is one of those like wow. If everything turned out perfect, this will happen. I think I told you this California's working on legislation that would make it so that companies can't own single family homes. Oh yeah, like so like you can't own a property that's designed to be you know you can own a multi unit property. 10:01 which is actually going to end up turning a lot of homes into multi-unit, which is unfortunate. But one of the taxes they're doing is they're trying to stamp out some of these Airbnb's who are just buying up houses. Because some of these companies own 100 something properties. But if that went through, then that house that we got married at would become available. That would be clutch. And I am just speaking it into existence that my career would take off in a way that would coincide with the passing that law, that that house would become available and then we could buy that. 10:30 You'll be able to move in and finally get the raccoon out of those vents. It's down there. anyways, what I'm saying is it makes me jealous every time I watch the show. like, I know I can't feasibly rent an Airbnb every weekend with my friends in the Hamptons. It's not even an Airbnb. Yeah, but dude, that stuff, it's manufactured to do that. Like those people get to hang out with each other because they don't have other obligations. Like that's the whole thing about like the homesteading and the uh tradwife content is that it's subsidized. 11:00 by a high income. Also when they're making money from social media, that's interesting. mean, they're all making money off social media. They're all making money off the show. Of course, if you show like my wife, the TragWife content where she's just at home and she's making sourdough today and her... It's also several of them have nannies. Come on. ah But it's pitching like a, yeah, my life would be great if I didn't have... 11:24 obligations and stuff to work and I didn't have to go make money to pay bills. Yeah, of course life would be great and I could just hang out with my friends all day yeah yeah and that's what they're selling you. I mean that I think that's the thing with the people on this show is they're making like ten thousand an episode. Yeah, they also all have careers in New York City, which are probably paying pretty well and they're also all influencers right, so they're all making a lot of money, so it's like and so the parties though are they ragers that we're saying like the summer house is it a rager of them are ragers. Not all of them are ragers like 11:54 I would honestly like, yeah, some of them are ragers, some of them aren't. But anyway, the point I'm trying to make is like I see that and like this, that TV series that you watch that you're like, it's not very good, but it's like kind of interesting. They go on vacation every year with their friends for like 50 years, like every quarter with their friends, for like whatever it was, like 50 years. I watched that and I'm like, I feel like for the last 10 years since I graduated college, really, I haven't really invested in relationships and I see this stuff and I'm like, it would be like, it's not hard. 12:24 to just get people together a couple times a year to do something fun. It is hard. You're right. I just don't want you to think that it's like oh, it's not hard to do that. It is hard right. Actually, you're right. You know yeah, you're right. Anyway, so it's I mean like how many times have you and I tried to hang out outside the podcast? Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, it is tough to do and that's okay. Yeah, yeah, I guess you're right. You know yeah, but also this is what I've been telling my wife. We need to invite more people over just to hang out at our house. We don't have anywhere to go with our friends. That's like 12:53 not spending a hundred dollars. That is true. That is true. So anyway, yeah, tell me about these rangers in the Hamptons Rangers, ragers, ragers. I was like, what are you talking about? The Rangers? Well, they're not ragers either. They're lavish parties right there and they're pretty often almost every weekend during the summer. There's parties and all this stuff right and this is summer house. Yeah, well and Marty Markowitz is on the property most of time taking care of the stuff he's he's 13:18 cleaning up after all the parties, he's keeping all the trash, he's going around serving guests and all this stuff, while Isaac Stevens is mingling and doing the whole stuff, right? And so, um Isaac... Has he met Isaac Stevens? Yes. Joe? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joe has met Isaac Stevens before. And so he says to Marty, he says, well, that's a beautiful property. mean, uh it's really great. Do you have pictures of the property? Yeah. Yeah, I want to see it. um 13:47 The interesting thing about the Hamptons is like every house in the Hamptons is like six hundred million dollars. That's an exaggeration, but it really is like every house is like tens of millions of dollars and some are hundreds of millions of dollars, which is bananas. So this is the house that we're talking about. Okay, yeah, it's a I think it's a beautiful lot of sunlight, lots of thing, you know, is not what I pictured at all. Yeah, I love the atrium of top like that that sunroom. Honestly, that looks just like the top of 14:17 Was it rigs out of angel windies? Oh yeah, he put a windies on the second floor of his house. Yeah, that's pretty cool. So this is the house. It's a pretty, you know, lot of big windows, big pool in the backyard. Yeah and so there's a lot of stuff to take care of around the property. This is a picture of Marty, by the way. That's what Marty looks like. Okay, so you now what I pictured, but yeah, this is him older. Obviously, is he holding a lawsuit? I don't know what he's holding. This is just a picture I found of him. I think he's the background. That is his. I don't know who that is. That party, his sister, 14:47 uh okay, there's a gong. Is that a gong up there like a gong says marty ah just a normal kind of guy like you know, an assuming kind of guy, and if you saw this guy in the Hamptons, you would honestly you know, because he looks like this yeah. You know he's he doesn't present himself as like a rich kind of guy or is the guy who cleans the property. This is the guy who takes he's the caretaker of the property yes and he he I do want to make abundantly clear to our audience. 15:13 that he has his laptop on his table and he's got it on one of those Mountie thingies. I feel like that tells you right there how old he is. That's very So that's Marty. And so Joe says to Marty, he says, you know, I love this house. Isaac's done pretty well for himself. And Marty says to Joe, oh, actually this is my house. And Joe says, what do you mean? And so Marty says, let me tell you a story. 15:43 So we got to rewind back to Marty's life. So Marty is born into a Jewish family in New York, right? Is Marty a psychologist? Marty's not a psychologist, no. His parents run a successful fabric business called Associated Fabrics Corporation. And Marty has an older sister named Phyllis. um Marty's shy, he's an obedient, good kid, conflict-averse, doesn't try to do a whole lot of stuff, very avoids confrontation. His father's, you 16:13 emotionally harsh, of like a, you know, foreboding kind of father and his mother's distant and you kind of, um, you're shaking your legs. Like you're very anxious right now. I'm so anxious right now. Uh, I just, don't know what to do with my legs. I don't know what to do with my legs. I don't know what to do. Just sit still buddy. Okay. So, you know, they run this fabric store in New York. It's a, um, they're, they're a normal family. They're going to small business. 16:41 So Marty's around the business a lot. So it's one of those things where you know if you're starting a business and you have your two kids, they're kind of more in the way than they're not in the way. And so Marty kind of grows up. Wait, how old are the kids? I mean, this is his entire childhood. Okay, right. So he's born in the fifties. No, no, no. He's born in the forties. I don't actually know what year he's born. That's fine, ah but anyway, so we get to his. What I'm saying is 17:07 The family dynamic is the family, his father's very focused on the business. And his mother is very distant, critical, especially about his weight and decisions. And Marty grows up feeling kind like an afterthought, maybe useful but not loved by his family. So in his late 30s, Marty's now running the family business. And in 1980, he is 38. 17:36 in nine so did his parents retire or they dead? I was just getting very say they both died within six months apart. Harp so that is that is really tough on him. Well, like was it like one of them died and then the other one was like a broken heart or was it like they both died? Did they have natural causes? I yeah they got. I mean it doesn't they weren't like murder or something, but yeah they both of his parents recently died. I'm sketched out about Marty. I'm not going to lie that you think he did it 18:05 think he did it. With fabrics? I think there is something. So inherits the estate and he actually becomes the sole owner. He has an older sister, but he's the sole owner of the company. Okay. Okay. The company is passed down to him. I'm not a hundred percent sure what his sister got, but he gets the fabrics company. So now he runs Associated Fabrics. And it's like, like they did well. Like, or is it like they good? I mean, they do everything from home curtains and like fabrics for chairs to a theater buying that giant curtain. You know? Okay. Yeah. 18:34 Like, and they're in New York, they're selling. yeah, big theater. Yeah, it's a business. It's a thriving business, right? But this, his parents dying kind of puts him in a little bit of a funk, because now he's the sole owner. He's making the decisions. And like you said, his mom, when he's growing up, of really put a lot of pressure on him for his inability to make decisions. So he actually starts having frequent panic attacks. So during some of these meetings or difficult conversations at work, 19:03 like he would avoid answering the phone. Clients would come in and he would legitimately go hide in the is Isaac a psychologist, Isaac Stevens, yeah, it's Isaac I curbs, go this no. What is your deal? You're trying to figure stuff out. I was so skeptical about this story. Oh Marty 19:25 he's like negotiating contract. He goes because so overwhelmed that he literally hides behind a curtain in his office right. His employees are losing confidence in him anyway, so he tell he's literally hot of the his employees come in. They're like Marni and he's he's back there just he's clear like you know when you see a kid hiding behind a curtain you're going to you know and you're like oh come in there like Marty. What would you do though parties out here? What would you do if you walked in your boss's office and they were doing that though you just go 19:55 Okay, yeah, that's a good question. I don't know how you respond to that. You tell the rest of the office for sure. You got to go look at Marty's office real quick. Everyone go knock on his door today. Everyone take a look at there. Just see yeah yeah, it's a ground level office. He's overwhelmed at work is what I mean. Yes, me too and you too and so he confides in his sister Phyllis and he says he feels like he's shrinking inside like he feels. This doesn't own the 20:23 Phyllis is not involved with the fabric company. She's not involved. But she's rich. Yeah, mean, she got a push of inheritance as well. it's fine, right? So she sees her brother spiraling, she feels terrible about this. And so she suggests to him that he should see a psychiatrist. 20:44 So she gives him the contact for their rabbi who refers him to a really young, energetic Manhattan psychiatrist named Dr. Isaac Hershkopf. 20:56 I thought it was Ike. It is Ike is short for Isaac. Is it really the mailbox really does say Isaac Stevens, though, and we'll get to that interesting, but I knew that would throw you. I knew that would bury it a little bit. It does so I still listen to this a little. This is I curse. You really should go listen to the because we'll get to we'll get to the whole thing. We'll get to the whole thing. So Ike Herskoff is a psychiatrist and so Marty makes his appointment reluctantly and he's like. I don't think anyone can fix was wrong with me, but he calls the number anyway yeah right now we're in nineteen eighty one. 21:24 I already is thirty and this was this is an important, an important note about the eighties is people were very skeptical of psychiatrists back then yeah like it was weird. I mean honestly until like the late twenty tens like it was almost kind of taboo to see a psychiatrist or a counselor of any way yeah. mean mental health itself was kind of like you know. I think there was there was this idea that a psychiatrist was going to drug you up and then you would just like not be yourself. 21:53 and and more than that, there was the idea of like what what can talking about your feelings do for real, but like for real yeah yeah yeah. So he goes into his appointment with dr eich herschkopf. Now this is dr eich in his office with all of his degree honestly love him. This guy gosh I'm so I'm not going to lie. He does ooze charisma to be honest. There is something about and I don't know a way to say this without me sounding so weird, but I had some friends like this 22:22 whose dads were like this. And there's something about the early 2000s, mid 2000s, those dads who wore the oversized polos and had just the hairiest arms. ah And like, you just can't help but respect them. I don't know what it is about that. 22:39 but you just see those here. You push the arts sticking out of those sleeves that are way too long and you're just like that guy. You keep going back. is someone I should know you should keep talking. So rich. I don't know what it is. uh Is there something I could do to make my arms bushier? I respect that guy 23:06 so I don't know if you can tell the audio listener, but he doesn't have hairy arms and apparently for Tim, that's like that's a sign of respect. That's a big 23:14 so he is wearing a large polo. This is eighty one. This is nineteen eighty one. Holy cow! This guy's ahead of the times. I expect even more in his office. He's a typical. You know he's got several degrees up on the wall behind him and books everywhere and so honestly running suspicious number of degrees. I'm not yeah like yeah several degrees up there. Yeah, he is a legitimate psychiatrist. My parents had that picture to actually is it of the doctor's office? I well, I'm going to be honest now that I say that a lot. don't know if my parents have that picture, but I know that picture. I don't maybe my parents 23:44 isn't it somebody I know had that picture of that kid looking at that thing real close yeah interesting. So um yeah, he's a legitimate psychiatrist is real, so he's like a real real doctor, cool, cool, cool, great. So this is doctor I with his really hairy arms and so Marty shows up to Ike's office on Park Avenue. Okay, and he's he walks in. He's impressed with all the you know all the diplomas and and and he was wearing well tailored suit that day. 24:13 okay, I was wearing a well. So she couldn't even see the R C didn't know you have to see him, but I exudes a level of confidence and maybe that role is to see arms that are that I who's like waiting back in the chair and just with his arms that unkempt with a polo that doesn't fit yeah, but he still just exudes confidence. You're like you look pretty rough right now, but like I trust you because you're so confident you there's like two types of rich people. So there's some rich people who do like you know by 24:41 very brand name clothes and buy a bunch of jewelry and do like and then there's the rich people who literally just it looks like they do not care yeah yeah. I saw I was in the I was in Lax couple weeks ago and I saw a homeless person inside Lax and I was like how did you get through security? That's crazy and then I realized that it's actually Ethan Hawk who's Ethan. He's an actor m so yeah it's like I think the level of rich that's like who says that who 25:11 Cuban, Cuban said, Mark Cuban says that he says, he says, got to earn the right to not have to care. Yeah. And so, so that level of confidence that Ike is giving off is that he's like, I don't care. Yeah. You know? And so I, I sits behind his desk and he's not taking any notes while Marty's talking. And so Marty, I like that when a server comes, they don't have to take notes to just, I'll remember that actually makes me super nervous. It makes me so nervous that I want to see my server, write it down. 25:39 But he says, tell me what's going on, man. What do you feel like you're, why do you feel like you're not enough? And so the initial sessions are twice a week for 45 minutes. Yeah. Right. Normal, maybe, you know, getting a session, yeah, yeah, yeah, Or kind of stuff. Right. And then I quickly begins to redefine Marty's internal narrative. And he's starting to, to read what Marty is saying and give language to it. But this is not a normal, healthy thing a psychiatrist would do. He starts to tell Marty things like your family didn't love you. 26:09 So this is, this is the 1985 middle class families worst fear about therapists. They're like, yes, he is someone who was doing what they were actually afraid of. Yes. That he's telling him like your family didn't love you. Like when they did that, that that wasn't love. They didn't love you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they used you. Yeah. And he's saying things like you were emotionally abused. Yeah. And 26:34 you never actually made a decision for yourself, which do you know? Do you think was true and he was like coming to light with it? Or do think he was being abuse? I think there's elements of that that could be true. mean like, but it's all that's catastrophic language. You never made a decision for yourself. That stuff that I help like a normal good psychiatrist. Now a psychologist like a counselor would help you not like 27:01 would go, not all of your decisions have been somebody else's. But that's the stuff he started to say. And it's like, my parents loved me. Did they do an ideal upbringing, even when they made these decisions that were selfish for sure, but is their own selfishness and the things that they're dealing with mean that they don't love me? The answer is yes. But that's what a psychologist should help you de-catastro- 27:31 size catastrophize, catastrophize. That's what I couldn't figure out how to instead of ramping you up there, right? And that's what that's what Ike was doing. And so by the third week, Ike invites Marty to go on a walk after one of the sessions interesting. And so he says the fresh air is going to help him allowed 27:52 Okay, great areas. Nice. And that walk turns into lunch the next week and then the next week it's a movie and then a dinner and Ike starts these 45 minutes. It has great arms. These 45 minutes twice a week. So 90 minutes of therapy. Yeah. Slowly turn into six or seven hours per week. So these outings are 28:20 three hours, twice a week, four hours and it's he by paying the bill is yeah, Ike paying the bill. No Marty Marty is paying for these sessions. Marty's paying for six or seven hours of time and then is he also paying for the movie tickets and the dinner? Yes, so Ike is already yikes. He's kind of playing him. Yes, and these are turning from these are phone calls. These are office sessions. Obviously weekend walks help with errands. 28:50 And then like long late night conversations in Ike's apartment. he's coming over. this unique to Marty or does he have a lot of clients he's doing this with? um Does he have other clients? It doesn't seem like it at this point. that's lot of time. And so Ike tells him stuff like if we're going to rewire the way you see yourself, we can't just talk in circles in an office. Like this is your rehabilitation. We need total immersion. Right? And Marty trusts him completely. 29:17 He tells Phyllis this guy's changed my life. Because Marty does see some immediate, and here's what I think happens. Marty finally has somebody like anybody who is invested in caring about him. That's all he needed. Marty was lonely. Does Phyllis know? Well, he tells Phyllis that this guy's changed my life. And that's what I'm saying is that he does see some benefits because he has somebody, because just talking it out is helping. aah And so Phyllis, here's what's happening. She's a little skeptical. She's just kind of like, 29:47 you're spending more time with your shrink than you are at work or with your staff. And Marty says, no, no, no. says, it's okay, I got another job. You want to come try our sandwiches? It's the yellow belly. Marty says something that cues Phyllis off a little bit because he says he's like a big brother to me. And that was the first time that Phyllis was kind of like, that's a weird thing to say, right? And so Phyllis is starting to be a little more pressure on Marty and being like, hey, this is weird. This isn't normal. This is a lot of time with your counselor. And so Marty tells that to Ike. 30:17 and says, Phyllis keeps objecting to us spending time together. we should kill her. Well, he says to him, like, I guess, like, hey, you go for a walk. And Marty says, no, my sister actually plans something. She actually doesn't know if we should do that. And so Ike starts to say things like, your sister is resenting your success right now. Interesting. She's mad you're successful right now. She's losing control of you and that's making her upset. 30:44 He starts planting those kind of things. And so he encourages Marty to revisit childhood memories and then reframes them. so he's always, this is where he's not taking physical notes, but Ike is taking notes on the stories that Marty's giving him. Marty's telling him a story about Phyllis and then Ike will use this and say, don't you remember when she told on you? That wasn't protection. That was sabotage. She wasn't protecting you from the bad thing you were getting ready to do. She was sabotaging you from succeeding. 31:13 He's starting to reframe all those kind of myths. So he's starting to plant seeds to slowly draw Marty away from his sister, right? Which is the only family Maria has left, right? And so Marty, who has always seen Phyllis as his only ally, starts to doubt her intentions a little bit, right? Marty is doubting his sister's Marty is starting to be like, maybe I can write about this, right? And Ike pushes Marty, ultimately. much money is he spending? 31:40 I don't have an exact figure for this time frame because this is 1981 when they first started seeing each other. This process is slow. each other. When he first started seeing I know what you mean. And between 1982 and 1985 is when Ike, so for over three years, Ike is kind of slowly separating Marty from his sister. long con. Holy cow. Ultimately in 1985, Ike convinces Marty that he needs to disown his sister. 32:10 Not just personally. He needs to cut her out, because she is getting some money from the business, even though she's not an owner. um he, ah Marty writes a letter that is dictated by Ike. So Ike is saying, write this down. so he's like Paul in prison. Yes, I'm in prison and I got bit by a snake. 32:35 but he accuses her of manipulation, stealing money from their apparent estate and of emotional abuse. The letter is cold and it starts, it starts and ends. Sorry, it ends with I no longer consider you my sister. Loof. Yikes. And so Marty prints it out on Associated Fabric's letterhead and mails it certified. Phyllis is devastated. She tries to call me, but Marty won't answer the phone. That sucks. Yeah. 33:03 And what's tough is he doesn't open up an opportunity for her to have a conversation. He's just like, this is it. Well, that's pretty big red flag. I do think like, dude, there's so many people on the Internet who complain right now. We're like, oh, I'm getting cut off from my family. But in some cases, sure, that's unhealthy. Not the right thing to do. Most times that happens, it's usually not out of nowhere. And it's usually someone saying, here's the reason that I'm going to do this. Usually there's been 33:33 some conversations before then and like here's the expectation is respected. Here's what I'm willing to be treated with. Here's what I'm not going to be treated like those kind of things. This is not that this is kind of like for Phyllis. This is Marty choosing Ike over her. Yeah, I mean has she has there been conversations or is this out of the blues? Is the first time she's well she's been trying to tell him that Ike is a red flag. Yeah, you know so but she's not relenting on the pressure and I think that's where but Ike gets 34:01 he tells Marty to not just figuratively cut her out of life. Yeah, he needs to go through as many pictures as he can find and cut her out of these pictures shoot and uh put that picture of their house back up picture of the house. Yeah, I actually have a different. I actually have a good picture. This is uh yes. What this is the right one. There we go. This is their house. This is the Hamptons house. This isn't their house when they're yeah. This is the house he buys later. Okay, okay, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. What did you want to see about it? 34:31 Well, was going to ask you about that other picture with the people in it that aren't in it anymore in the picture, the same picture that the people, oh, did I actually click that one? Yeah, did they, did they, did he, did he cut them out of it? That was, that's, that's a later picture. Okay, this is later. um This is, this is during this time. This is a picture of uh Marty here on the right and Dr Ike on the left shirtless. 34:53 first. In some reason, okay, I'm going to be honest. You the chest hair of Ike, huh, like dude, Ike is friggin. I love his chest hair. I've got a view. Wow, I do doctor, right? I do. What are you a police officer? Because you're hot. I do have a few hands up. Don't shoot. Oh no, a few things to say of this picture. Great point number one. If you look at this picture, 35:19 he his arms are so much less hairy than they were in the other picture. I don't know what happened, but they're not very in the picture yeah, you could I also think look at his chest here is kind of wet a little bit like I think he's been in the well he's been in the pool. I think yeah, maybe more that arm here probably true, but this green polo. can't say for sure is if you look at his sleeves yeah, his got the same tan line like he's wearing a polish in that long pole. I do still respect that also, but this green polo that Marty's wearing in this hat 35:48 like this. He looks like a groundskeeper he does, and this is the stuff that he would wear around the house. You know, care of the house and this is did he dress like that before? Is this something that I know yeah, like you should look like a groundskeeper. I think this would be better if you started to look like a janitor. No, you know, it's just this sense of style. This is just him and I don't know what year this photo is, but this is this is this looks to be probably eighties like maybe mid eighties around the time that Phyllis is getting cut out yeah. 36:15 I would probably would guess nineties, but I could see eighties, maybe nineties. He does. I does very much look like that you're staying the night at your friend's house and you walk into the kitchen in the middle of the dad's just like ads in their drink beer and he's like oh sorry that you guys were asleep and they like grabs a shirt that's nearby and puts it on real quick and and then he's like he's like I'm gonna have to how often this happened to you. I knew a lot of your friends dad was just like oh sorry, oh sorry. 36:43 and you were like that's what peak masculinity looks like a friend. I need to if I can't grow my arm hair, I'm going to tattoo it on. I had a friend look at his back here. You can literally kind of see above his shoulder. It's going roll up there a little bit. No, I had a friend. had a friend growing up. uh His parents were were they were doing fine and uh and by like I don't mean like their relationship was doing fine. I mean the relationship they're fine. They're financially more than fine. 37:09 He was a smoker. He wasn't allowed to smoke in the house. He smoked in the garage. And I remember very clearly they kept all of their like beverages in the garage fridge. And I remember being over there. It was like the second or third time that I went to their house. And I remember going out there and grabbing a drink and walking past him while he's smoking uh and walk back, walking back in the house, only talked to him like once or twice in my life. And he's sitting there. I will never forget this moment. This is a great moment in my life. 37:39 and he says smug as old sitting on the garage stairs. He sees me. I'm probably a fourth grade. He says so Tim, huh? I'm like yeah and he's like that's enough an awesome name great moment for me. It's an awesome rate moment for me and I said thanks and I went inside and then later you find out it was Tim and he's like I was like tip right. 38:07 I don't like that name. I don't like that name anymore. name. 38:14 He didn't have very much hair on his arms, though I will say that for sure. Maybe that's why I think smoking is cool because of that because of that moment. Another adult is this what I'm saying is that it is important for young men to have other adult men who speak into them who respect and like doesn't matter how much your dad is like Tim T. I'm proud of you. I love you yeah having it. You remember a moment where another guy other yeah and that's what I can't wait to steer your child off a cliff. 38:44 you know, I be like hey, you know what's cool robbing your family and moving to Mexico. Hey, that's really cool. That's really cool. uh 39:05 The way you're doing that seems like you've never done this before. 39:15 Hey, join us on Patreon. If you want this to be ad free and also the we there's tons of other perks you get to all episodes are ad free. You get next week's episode right now and you get to do monthly hangouts with me and Tim like we really look. It's like a virtual just hang out room and we play games together. We talk. We have show and tell sometimes we've made a lot of good friends through this and so it's a really good time to do that. So either way, please share the episode. Tell somebody about it. These are all those ways to help us grow the show because we love doing it. We want to keep doing it. So thanks for being here. 39:49 Okay, so anyway, so he cuts phyllis out and I actually got the you're wrong. This is is 1982. This is like a year into his counseling. Oh shoot, that's because phyllis out okay, dang um and so in and he's and actually marty starts telling his co workers because they're kind of like hey phyllis, what is he? He the fabric place. Yes, the fire place. He kind of starts. Let me understand here. Is this a small town fabric shop or is this like new? They work well. Yeah, I know it's new york, but like is it local only or do they work with like the nation? 40:18 not what the they ship around. It's a big. It's a big. It's a big business. They're making enough money. This isn't just like they walk into the store and they're like I need some fabrics. This is like this is like a big business. have more ring ring. I need a bunch of fat. Yes, there it's a very big business and and he starts telling his coworkers and his fan other family members that Phyllis has serious psychological issues and that his therapist suggested a total boundary and there's no one who's like oh yeah, Ike is behind this. You know 40:46 and so everybody else who knows her is like I can see it. Maybe you know, I don't know okay, okay, and so but it's also one those things where it's like the more she fights. It's it's you know, how do you yeah and especially to like you're in that situation. I'm sure it's maddening, especially if you're getting cut out. Financially, your only sibling, like your parents both died. It probably does drive two years a little crazy like you probably do kind of out a little bit. You're being gaslit and all of a sudden you're kind of like you kind of come across as crazy. Yeah, yeah, you know 41:14 um and so so that's a that's eighty two. Ike starts um showing up to associated fabrics meetings just to observe how Marty's behaving at work. You know and he kind of pitches it like well you know you can tell me how you are work, but I kind of want to I want to want to observe you at your job yeah and at first he's just he's just kind of in the background, which would be super weird. 41:39 if your counselor just sat in this chair. It was like you talking about general time. You tell me how mean Jaron is to you during the podcast, but I kind of wanted to see it. Well, you can watch it on YouTube. No, you know I need to see it. I need to say, and so like if he was just chilling, yeah, she was your counselor. She oh there you go. 41:59 Ah. 42:02 mommy issues. Oh, I just need another woman in my life to help me, help me guide myself. The writers, you know who doesn't need counseling alpha men, but it would be weird. Yeah, so now I just in the corner at the meetings yeah and he's you know and he's doing this for several weeks and then eventually he's kind of like going like hey, I've got a thought like on sale strategy. Something that's not about is Ike is kind of 42:31 piping up during some of these meetings and and going like well, what do we like? What if we did this on customer retention or like leadership stuff and everybody's just like let him talk, yes, I'm not going to lie. Even my boss's therapist is in the room in a meeting and my boss's therapist says something. My response is not talk. My response is shut up shrink like I do that every time he talks guarantee you go shut up shrink every single time because what hilarious 42:57 suit disrespectful also hilarious, but if he's only been if he but I forgot his arms. Never mind, I'm the you're taking account how hairy this guy's arms are this guy is like I I everything I say I'm like hey, let me put the same the polo falls down as I see too big. He's wearing a long sleep on may Mith arm. m 43:23 let me lost my teeth with that hairy arm baby. Oh yeah, I got Alex to go, so that counts, but I mean it's kind of like it's like, but this has been several weeks he's been there. It's not like day one he's like I got a thought he's been there for always and he's also not standing up like the moment the intern finally finds their voice, but he's also not he's also not being like what do know he's not like 43:51 oh he's not standing in front of the room being like we should do this. You guys should do this. Yeah, just going like they're kind of talking amongst the teams like does anybody have any ideas and then I can the back goes well. What if you guys did this outside observer can you remember I guess a lot of charisma I guess very nice lot of degrees you know because he can just be like hey you know this is not my place but I just got a thought yeah. What if you guys did this and you can take it or leave it. I don't work here but look what and that if someone did that you'd be a shut up shrink. Is that what you're saying 44:20 I mean, it depends if I could see those things in meetings for several weeks. Yeah, I mean, it depends on this. I guess it depends on the person like it depends on how the thing like there's I think there's a lot of variables to what's going on. I think my gut reaction probably is to shut up shrink, but show me those arms. Maybe I'll let you show me those arms. That sounds like an HR violation, but so then Marty in an Ike Ike's in the office with Marty. 44:49 And so now he's observed a lot of the work relationships. So he's starting to give a lot of feedback on the specific work relationships. everybody? Yeah. So Marty is writing internal memos and, you know, proposals for this kind of stuff. And so he's starting to help him rewrite those. And I said, well, here's what you should say. Here's how you could say that better. I think if you say that you come across as insecure. if you said this... his like little chat GPT. Kind of. 45:19 and his own is a little pocket paper clip to be like. Can I help? Can I help out here, but he even starts like your sister hates you. You should set up boundary so I could stop for clippy. It seems like you should get your sister out of your life. Do you want to right click cut on Phyllis move to trash to track? So but he's so now Ike is writing some of these proposals 45:47 on behalf of him because he sees it stressing him out and this is what I'm saying is that this is I for you. That is Ike's motive. Okay, Ike's or his is M. O. Is it he goes his mode of operation? If you let's go to a movie, I'll write this for you. I'll write this for you. He even starts reprimanding employees on Marty's behalf. See, that's the moment I say shut up shrink for sure right. See your therapist starts reprimanding me. I reprimand him, but then he can just fire you, not the shrink 46:17 the shrink has no power, but doesn't he? I mean it does seem like he's gaining some power and a lot of influence, which is power, but because that shrink for as long as I can well, a couple of people stood up and when they went to Marty and they said hey, this guy doesn't have any authority here. Yeah, he don't see they said work. They said and I quote shut up shrink uh 46:43 so I says that person is challenging your authority yeah there because they're because they don't know that I wrote this memo. They're responding to you that way yeah they're challenging your authority you and Marty says no he's worked here for a long time. He says you should fire him or your week and Marty fires. Yeah you call you call a man weak. You know 47:03 And Marty's sitting on the mouse every night going home, putting Rogaine on his arms, trying to get those hairy arms, right? He's actually taking fabric home from the fabric store and pulling little fibers off of it and gluing it to his arms. 47:17 Yeah. So, Ike eventually, because he's doing all this business stuff, convinces Marty to introduce him as when, because like, it's weird if you go meet new clients or clients who've bought fabrics before and your counselor's there. Yeah, this is just my therapist. Right. So Ike says, Ike says that's awkward and weird. Honestly, honestly, bro, can we start doing that? This is my therapist. our business meetings? my therapist. Sorry, he's just here this is my therapist. He's just here to observe. 47:51 Well, so he tells him that's awkward. Just Sam, I'm your business partner. So he starts introducing me as a business partner. And so Ike on his own starts attending trade shows and using by himself and he's using Marty's name to build credibility in this business circle because he's like, oh, I'm a strategic arm of the company. So that's what I'm saying. I'm trying to paint a picture like this is what Ike does. He's very good at that kind of stuff. And so ah Marty starts to sound like 48:21 like have we ever seen anybody who starts to idolize somebody so much that they take on their mannerisms and they start to sound like them. That's what's starting to happen, do and speak and say things they're same way. Yes, yes, yes, like they just do have a start to their wives can't really tell them apart. They say they just start to idolize them to the point where they start to they start to talk like the way that they talk and you know, I'm saying 48:49 Yeah, and it's just like why are you, why are you batting in this chair? Well, this is what my hero does. Just like at work, he started to say like I'm not going to engage with sabotage today or like you know, at lunch with coworkers like I'm redefining the ecosystem of my you heard somebody who's like you know, just saying stupid 49:12 stuff, right? Yeah, good for you for finding your truth or whatever, but shut up. He starts to introduce Ike to his friends as this is Ike, my therapist, my business consultant and my best friend all rolled into one. And so Marty's fully bought in to Ike's thing, right? Now every major life decision that Marty is making runs through Ike. Not just business stuff. This is whether or not to attend a family wedding, because Phil's might be there. 49:42 Oh right, or what color to paint his office, which brand of wine to serve at a client dinner like every decision is running through Ike at this point and so Marty begins to just standing here trimming his hedges, telling Joe all of this. Is this where we're at right now in the story? 49:59 Yes, okay, he's telling Joe I'm trying to picture like he's like he's like yeah and then so then I'm sorry he's I'm running all my decision. They could have made a movie where it's like almost like a forest gump where he's like just telling it just cuts back to him being like was. This is a quote from him. He says sometimes I'll say something. This is what he started to tell his friends because he couldn't because Marty's brain he's he's struggling to identify his own desires and his thoughts apart from Ikes, okay, because it's so invasive. 50:25 that he says. Sometimes I'll say something and I realize I don't know if it's my thought or Ike's and so but that could just cut to him being the yeah. Yeah, sometimes I can't even tell my own thoughts apart from Ike's and then Joe's just standing there in his backyard like I didn't and like and he's Joe's in this pad and he's like I'm actually going to take notes on everything you're saying right now because I'm going to write something about this because this is crazy. How do you accidentally stumble into this right? That's crazy and we're still this is still only this is only the first two years still this is 50:55 very early in, right? And so um Ike reinforces it by being like, oh my gosh, yeah, so your thoughts are realigned. Like you're finally becoming the man you always wanted to be, right? And so Marty begins um taking on administrative tasks for Ike. And Ike frames this as, if you can't do the administrative acts for yourself, maybe you can do them for me and that will build your confidence. Like you're part of something, right? And so he starts organizing his appointments and 51:25 tying up notes from his lectures and mailing, mailing letters to publishers and potential clients, you know, patients. And I keep saying, helping me helps you. You're learning agents. Yeah. Right. This, this feels like 51:43 I've tried not to name names here, but this feels like I don't know James River Leadership College, maybe well, because like and that's because because Marty's just doing this busy work and like Ike is writing a book and writing a book by hand by the way, which is a psycho behavior thing to do that is absolutely so he's writing in the eighties, not before people didn't they you know anyway, so he's writing this book and so then Marty's taking his handwritten notes and then he's typing them, you know, 52:12 And Marty's grateful for this stuff, because Marty thinks this is helping. But that's exactly what Marty's just like, I'll get to clean toilets for the Lord. I'm learning, I'm growing, I'm getting to I'm getting my leadership degree. And I get to pay to do it. Anyway, it's accredited through Evangel. But I mean, he ends up spending more time working directly for Ike than he does for his own company. 52:39 And Ike continues to push this narrative in Marty's head. And so in 1984, Ike begins to float this idea in some therapy sessions that Marty needs to be giving himself to something bigger. He needs to be building his legacy, right? Marty actually, part of the reason Marty's overwhelmed is that Marty has more money than he needs. ah Which is a crazy thing to say, but he says you've never... 53:07 you've done anything truly meaningful with it. You know now that I think about it. If you're watching this, I think you have more money than you need and you should report us. You should report us on page. You have too much money and you I love so much. I don't care about the joke. I was making any more. You should report us on page. You should report us on patron. Get us banned 53:36 Don't do that. We could not pay for this place if you do that. mean, Marty has enough money that he could do the monster truck tier. Because again, the fabrics business is really successful. But here's the thing about the fabrics business is that his parents built it. Yeah, wasn't him. Yeah, that's hard for your confidence. You are living on your parents' value. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's daddy's BMW, not yours. Isaac. Isaac. 54:07 Ike says you should start the Yaren foundation Yaren Hebrew word that means to sing with joy. I thought when you did this, you were trying to point to a logo you were put on screen and I sat there for a really long time being like, is he going to put that? No, it's the Aaron foundation. Okay, okay, sing with joy. Okay, it's my name. 54:33 Okay, okay, okay, is spelled, Jer, spelled with a Y, but it's the that where jaren comes from yeah, interesting. I never guess that so it's Y A R O N and that's what my name means to sing with joy. So fun times, so he convinces him to the year in foundation and the Aaron Foundation is a way for Marty to heal from his emotional trauma. He's going to transform his grief into philanthropy and 55:01 Bonus, Ike is going to go in with him. So it's not just Marty starting this. Ike wants to be part of this foundation. He wants to be the director of the foundation. So he is the co-founder and executive advisor of the Yaron Foundation. Dr. Ike is. Marty puts in $165,000 and Ike contributes $5,000. Fair. Which Ike insures is equal. That does sound equal to me too. 55:28 Ike says, that's the same percentage of my income as it is yours. Oh, that's fair. That's a good point. So that's how Ike... partners? That's how he sets it up, yes. Oh, They are doing this foundation together. in almost immediately... And you keep saying foundation. Is this a charity? This is a charity, and it's used the way that all charities are, which is to boost Ike's reputation. company! 55:57 I mean in a way yes, okay, because so they're starting to host events that are under the Yaron Foundation name, but it's really just a way of getting rich people to give to the foundation, but it's getting rich people to be in an event where Mike starts taking pictures with or Ike. Sorry, Ike Mike. I did it again. Ike starts taking pictures because Ike loves being important. Yeah, right. Me too. He likes being around. So here's Ike with Gwyneth Paltrow. 56:26 I oh my God, I can't even recognize her there right right, but he likes to brush shoulders with celebrities and here's another one. I don't remember who this is, but maybe you'll know who this celebrity is just two dudes who are not problematic at all. It's OJ Simpson for listeners glasses. 56:48 dude. I are you in love with her? I encourage coffee because every every picture I put of I come here. It's something else. The first picture it's like I love his arms and then it's like he's sure listen. You're like oh man, like he's got that tan line, so he does a polo. He looks confident here and then it's like dude. Look at his glasses. He just seems like you think I curse cop is hot. What is your deal dude? 57:19 Do you want to kiss I curse God? All I'm gonna say is if you're listening, you should watch this episode. 57:30 you guys don't understand how I see how Marty fell for look at his eyes. He's so dreamy m 57:39 I mean, but for real, those are cool glasses. Oh my gosh dog. So anyway, I uses this is a way to tell you his public image and and and I would too though yeah, but this is this is Ike's way of you know, kind of mudding the finances a little bit right. Okay, Ike begins asking things about Marty's bank accounts. He's saying so if something were to happen to you, 58:07 Who would manage these assets? have a phyllis anymore. Straight up. He's like, who do you trust that would... goes, don't even have a will, do you? family, you don't have kids. Marty, it's reckless that you don't have a will. That is a little reckless. We should make you a will. You know, it is kind of reckless that you don't have a will. Now that I think about it, you sing with joy and stuff and all, and that's great, but like, I mean, if you think about it, it's kind of reckless. Like, what are you going to do? Give it to Reagan? My wife? 58:37 Oh no, you're right. No, so Ike convinces Marty. Okay. Marty has a Swiss bank account for some reason. Okay. That Ike is a cosigner on this account. Wait, he has a Swiss bank account? Yeah, with hundreds of thousands of dollars in it. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, here's the thing. I think Marty had some financial planners. Marty, Marty, know, Marty's parents set him up well. Like he's got other bank accounts. He's got, uh can you me a picture of Marty again? Yep. 59:07 ah this is Marty. This is them together. This is Marty at the time this is happening and Marty wasn't allowed to be involved in the business when he was a kid. He was kind of involved. Do you think Marty was doing crime? No, I think his parents. Here's what I think. You want to know what I think? Sure, I think that New York, well, what would have been like forties, fifties, sixties. I think that certain people potentially angry Italians 59:36 showed up to Marty's parents and said I need a large piece of fabric that won't leak. You why is everything this? Why is everything like it's the mafia? I think the mafia we want to get to wrapped up bodies. I don't need you giving more ammo for people to come after you. Okay, you're right. I okay fine kind hearted, wonderful people, the Italians angry 01:00:04 But so what I'm saying is like he's a co-signer on his bank accounts now. Yeah. Including a bank account that has hundreds of thousands of dollars that is like an offshore account. Like he's got, he's got different investments, different places. Now Ike is a co-signer on all of these accounts. He has named him as the executive of his estate and his last will and testament. Like, he gave him the power of attorney. So if something happens to Marty, Ike is now the one who makes these decisions. Right? That's crazy. And this is all within a couple of years of this happens. 01:00:34 Like it doesn't take long for him to do this. know, Ike has near total financial control and he can access Marty's money. He can make legal decisions on his behalf. He can override family members if it came down to that. Right. And Marty Marty believes that this is a safeguard. Marty actually one of his friends was like, hey man, this is a little sketchy. And Marty goes, no, no, no, I trust Ike more than anyone because he knows me better than I know myself. Right. 01:01:01 I'm still a stressed right now. Here's some rumors about this yeah. She does and she's deeply alarm. She sends a letter asking Marty to reconsider having him on his and I think intercepts the letter of course he does and tells Marty. Your sister wrote you a letter yeah and I don't think you should read it. How did he intercept the letter because it is he's involved and he's probably checking Marty's mail every day day. That's a federal offense. 01:01:31 Oh yeah, opposed to everything else that oh whoa, whoa, he's looking at his his mail. That's crossing the line, but he tells, he tells Marty, your sister just wants the money. You're doing the right thing by keeping distance. Right. And so Mar Marty at this point is fully enmeshed in Ike's world. Right. And 01:01:55 Ike starts calling Marty odd hours, with hour and hours of the night with work requests. Like, hey, I had an idea for a book chapter, can you come over and type it before I forget? Kind of stuff. It's almost like when you keep people exhausted, you know? And it forms a bonding chemical in you that's like, oh my gosh. Isn't it crazy that your baby's just Stockholm syndrome? But for the next few years, Marty types over a dozen manuscripts for Ike, over like mental health, self-health guides, memoirs. 01:02:23 a fictional novel about a revolutionary therapist that closely mirrors Ike. Wait, we revolutionary like the revolutionary war. No uh yeah, I is like let's write a like I was right a fiction piece about a therapist during the revolutionary war. That's great. Don't worry George. I'll make you feel better about this. 01:02:46 Hey, if you love the show, a great way to serve support is by getting some merch. We got lots of great stuff. I'm going to showcase some of it right now. This is like our little tilling QVC. You can get a it's not a call. It's a podcast sweatshirt. Very sweet. The nice thing about this is no one knows what podcast you're talking about. So you wear it in public and you can tell them about your lord and savior to a podcast. We also got the this is one of my favorite things we've ever made. The fiddle off fest hoodie. It's got uh the devil. 01:03:15 playing a fiddle. It's not really the devil's a skeleton. And then all of the bands on the back of it like it's a festival. But spoiler alert, these aren't bands. These are jokes from episodes. So worth checking out. And this is one of my favorite things we've ever done. This is for the real fans. This is an old one. We've got a Tim Stones get well quick trick shirt. And it's very cool. We've got some really good designs. Darren is good at designing stuff. So support his dream. No one will hire him as a designer, but you can by buying his merch. 01:03:43 It's our merch, but it's his designs. so leave a comment, say, Jared, you're good at this. um We like your art. He really needs it. He needs your support so bad. Please make him feel better about it and buy some merch. It helps make this show keep happening. You can tell people about how much you love this show with it. So. 01:04:07 Did you hear it? Did you hear what I said? Yeah, you're to do a two minute merch ad. wasn't a two minute merch ad. Oh, Jaren's a good designer. Give him a high five. Make him feel good about his art. 01:04:21 and then you're going to make them listen to two minutes of ads. We got to do all that and then it's going to be like back to school this fall like 01:04:31 I don't want to be. I hate skippable ads. They're not skip. They are skippable. Yeah, you too. Bring you leave all this in that 01:04:45 And anyway, so Marty's doing a lot for Ike and he starts introducing him not as a therapist, but he's my partner in my emotional recovery. Marty is introducing Ike. Ike as that, when he's a partner in emotional recovery. His self-identity is now so merged with Ike's world view that he no longer, he doesn't make any big decisions. He really did, like Ike put out the prophecy of you don't make any decisions for yourself. And... 01:05:13 It's almost like when someone tells you, like, hey, here's the problem, you just trust that they're not going to become that same problem. Right? So in 1986, this has only been five years, Marty mentions to Ike that he's thinking of buying a vacation property, you know? And it's the first independent decision he's kind of floated in a while. And Ike hears this and goes, you do need a place that's yours, somewhere to escape the ghosts, all this stuff. So Ike encouraged him. 01:05:43 to look in the Hamptons yeah, because I I've actually been watching this reality show. He goes, I know, man, I've seen that party house that's in and I goes no, no, no, no, like I think you should and I and Marty's like a little hesitant a little bit. He's like oh, it's pricey, it's expensive, but I goes no, no, no, no, you deserve it. This is part of your healing right. So Marty buys a modest house with that large backyard that we see now, right, modest to me. Well, in the Hamptons, this is I mean, this is pretty modest, but you know 01:06:12 I mean you can see the whole house in this picture like that's kind of a go. You know it's a do we know where it is? Can I look it up on Zilla? I'm sure we can find this afterward. We got we got enough to get to right here. We got to get some of those. So Marty buys it. Yeah and ah this is Marty's sanctuary is what it's kind of positioned as and Ike says it's a container for growth a place to redefine your past that's whispering at you and within a month of closing Ike starts 01:06:42 decorating the house without asking because he starts putting his own diplomas in the hallway. Nice. ah He replaces Marty's Marty's art with family photos of the Hirschkopf's and one notable thing is that he moves this giant cow statue. Let's see if I can find a picture of this actually a giant cow statue ah into the backyard because it gives ah it gives fun way it gives 01:07:12 like personality it gives. I can't find it's like there's when whenever I go to Saint Louis, there's this hotel. I always stay at and the hotel has a rooftop pool at the rooftop pool. It overlooks the city, uh beautiful city. It's not oh but overlooking the city is the rooftop pool and is really weird statue of a hippo. 01:07:36 and it doesn't fit the hotel vibe at all. It doesn't fit the pool vibe at all. Yeah, it's just this really big, really weird hippo. Is it like that? Kind of I got a picture of I don't have a picture of it's like it's like I'm fun. I'm quirky. You know, is that what that is? It doesn't or is it or is it like this cow was made by a Byzantine artist? Yeah, something like that. Okay, like it's more of like here. Let me show you picture. Okay, so it's 01:08:06 this is is this exactly what you were describing? No, not at all, because this is they had these cows all over Kansas City. My wife yeah has about sixty pictures because her mom was obsessed with it yeah, and so they used to take pictures when they were kids with these cows all over Kansas City. They had them all over the place and it's got to be the same artist. So this is yeah. This was Ike one of one of these put in the backyard. You know it doesn't it was look similar to this something of this vibe. It looks bad is what it looks like. I'm going to be honest with you, so that's that's you know Ike 01:08:35 put his own personal touches on this house pretty quick is what I'm yeah yikes and honest. If you got someone who's trying to put their personal touches on your house and they buy that and they put in the backyard, you should personal touch them out of your life well. So by the late eighties, so they buy this house eighty six by the late eighties, the summer parties are pretty regular right there, having this lavish parties guests are local philanthropists because the foundation high society new yorkers at least 01:09:01 one appearance from Glen of outro and her family. You know, we want from OJ and the mailbox changed to read what Ike wanted his author name to be, which was Doctor Isaac Stevens, a fake last name that he asked socially so that way no one knew that the fraud he was doing right and Marty is Marty going to these parties. Is he a party boy? Marty is again he's serving guests of these parties. Ike is introducing Marty at these parties as his cousin, 01:09:30 his assistant or his house manager. When people are like, who's that guy over there? He's like, oh, he's my house manager. Because all these people think this is Ike's house. Yeah. Because Ike's putting out the invite, right? And he's framing this to Marty as like, hey, you know, you're overwhelmed. don't want to be the owner. You don't want people to think you own this. Marty's wearing that green button up and he is grilling for the guests. He's cleaning up the lawn afterward. And a guest asked Marty, like, do you live here? He froze. And Marty said that he's just helping out. 01:09:59 and Ike cuts in and goes, he's a real mensch, he's just helping out. Marty begins to disappear into the role of a servant, not host, on his own property. And so anytime Marty expresses interest in friendships or dating even, Ike shuts that down. Ike goes, no, she's after your money, she reminds you of your mother, you're not ready. Keep him isolated. uh One woman Marty dates for a few months is forced to sign a non-disclosure agreement. 01:10:28 that Ike drafted himself. So it's not a real, probably just something that's like I won't tell people or whatever was in the beginning of the relationship or like they broke up it off and then it was like hey, by the way, you need to send this NDA Ike. There was one woman that Marty tried to date that Ike set up a meeting of just those two so he could interview her to tell Marty if it was safe or not and then tell Marty she's not emotionally safe for you. That's such a giant red flag like and then you Marty not sign that paper and not show up to the date. 01:10:58 if that happened, that is an unbelievably. I cannot believe she showed up good night. So in the early two thousands, this is this has been going on for almost two twenty years now right. Okay, over twenty years now yeah. I can courage as Marty to invest in a firm called Bennett funding group yeah, so we Joe talking to Isaac. What's that twenty ten or Marty? Okay, we're almost to the we're almost caught up 01:11:25 He's cutting the hedges and he's like, yeah, and then he had them sign the NDA and yeah. Well, I mean like I guess just cutting off any, any potential threat to his grip, right? Yeah. So Marty invests $1.5 million into the Bennett funding group, right? Yeah. Is that like a large portion of his money or is that? It's a pretty big thing, right? ah But it turns out to be a Ponzi scheme. Nice. And so uh Marty loses all of that money. 01:11:54 course he does, yeah. And he tells Ike that he's panicking, but Ike is like, it's just money, you still have me, you'll be fine, you'll be fine. oh Oh no. And around that same time, Associated Fabrics is failing, Marty's savings are depleted, now he's starting to run out of He's running the company. He's also paying Ike for all these sessions still. For 20 years, Ike has been living off of Marty's life. And he's continuing to pay the property taxes and the upkeep on the Hamptons house, which he barely uses himself, because Ike and his family now, 01:12:24 live there. Full time? right, that's one of their... Is Ike married now? Ike has got two kids. Ugh. um But now, if we're looking at the whole thing, Marty has lost his sister, any romantic prospects, his wealth, control of his home, and he spends hours each week doing unpaid work for Ike. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And in his journal, Marty wrote, I am a character in someone else's story. Yeah, you are. Yeah. Yeah. 01:12:54 So by 2007, Marty is now in his sixties and is after twenty six years of control. Ike has become more erratic, short tempered, domineering. The dynamic has shifted from passive manipulation to overt control. Marty is living in the guest room in his own Hampton's house, right, because he doesn't want to live in the house because I could drop by any time or host parties. Yeah. And so he's still attending therapy multiple times a week. 01:13:23 and completing these errands and doing all this stuff for I and he says 26 years. just feel like my therapist might be abusing me. So there's Mike or Mike goodness. You can call him Mike. They're a player. Marty wants to buy a flat screen TV and Ike shoots it down because you don't need that. It's wasteful. That's not what this house is about. It's true. Yeah, that's true. And yeah, because if you buy a with the cost of a TV, you could buy a home. So then Marty goes upstairs. 01:13:53 and realizes that Ike had already had a new one delivered to the master bedroom for himself, a flat screen TV. And this is one moment where- he crack? Does he crack? Does he kill him? For the first time in years, Marty goes, I'm the one paying for everything. Why don't I have a say in this house? There was just a little bit like a, okay. So Marty begins making some small decisions. He buys a new recliner for his New York City apartment. Something that Ike was like, ah, that's- That's the symbol of success. 01:14:22 That's you're going to become lazier be sitting in the chair. You don't have time. You're even at your apartment. You know, he reconnects with a former colleague from that used to work at the fabric for coffee without telling Ike. That's how do, but that's how controlling it was is that this one thing of like, what if I meet up with somebody I used to know for coffee and not tell him? Yeah, that's a little rebellious. Yeah. And he listens to an old voicemail from Phyllis who has not talked to now for twenty seven years. 01:14:51 has not talked to his own sister for 27 years. And Marty Journals, he writes this, he says, what if I've been wrong? I miss my sister. And who am I without him? So in early 2010, Marty's diagnosed with a hernia and he's got to get surgery. This is the breaking point. It's it's minor, you'll be fine. Like just keep me posted, right? So Marty goes in for surgery alone. After when he's recovering in his New York City apartment. 01:15:20 There's no visit, there's no flowers, there's no call, there's no food waiting for him when he gets home. And he's sitting there on this bed recovering from this, I mean, albeit minor surgery. But he's sitting here, if I died on that table, he would have gotten everything. And he wouldn't even call to see if I'm okay afterward. And that was the moment for him where he really started to break. And a couple of months later, this is where he flips. Because Marty, 01:15:51 loses it one night and so hold on. I'm trying to keep track. Is this after that moment where John him are talking and he's cutting the hedges now? Are we passed? No, we're not passed that yet. Okay, so he's still like yeah, and then I stabbed him with the hedge trimmers. No, we're not past that yet. Okay, okay, okay. So this is Marty snaps after this and one night drives out to the Hamptons property, doesn't tell Iquerys going, just drives out to the Hamptons property, goes to the backyard, 01:16:19 digs a gigantic hole in the backyard and kicks that painted cow into the hole in the back and berries this cow. Oh my gosh, I love that and does he tell Ike or does Ike just show up and be like where's the cow? He's like I don't know man. I think no still the cow he buries this cow and in and 01:16:42 he'll say this now. It took him hours like he is dry. believe closer, but he says it was it was exhausting, but it was emotionally cleansing. It was he buried it and one week later, Marty Marty drafts a formal letter to Ike okay, and it reads like one of Ike's own therapy, and he had Ike right help him write it. Yeah, he helped me break up with my there. 01:17:07 It's not you. It's not you. There's another therapist that's got a who's been controlling my life. And it's like, hmm, strange. says, he says in the letter that he's cutting off contact that he that he's revoking Ike's power of attorney. He's removed him from the will and he's terminating him as the executive as a state. Yeah. And the letter ends with this relationship has not been therapeutic. It's been exploitative. Yeah. And Marty mails it and Ike never responds. 01:17:35 So after mailing the letter, Marty reaches out, just calls Phyllis' number. He doesn't even know if it's going to be the same number. He hasn't talked to his sister in almost 30 years. This guy hasn't talked to his sister. 30 years. She answers and he says, I'm sorry, I think I've been in a cult. And that starts the reconciliation. They talked for six hours, they cry, they argue, and Marty starts to show her the journals and the financial records and the photo albums of the parties where he was a butler at his own home. 01:18:05 and she says, we'll fix this. So ah now we're to the point where Phyllis is starting to do the background work of taking these journals and financial records and trying to put this whole thing together. Marty is now at the Hamptons house kind of cleaning stuff up, removing all of Ike's things, and then he runs into the neighbor. And now Marty is... 01:18:27 So Joe is there watching these parties and he's like, this guy throws crazy parties. And he's like, and that butler is cool. And he's like, I'm going to go talk to the butler. Little but known to him is the whole time he's been watching these parties, this story is now cracking. Like this relationship is falling apart in front of his eyes. And he just happens to have the conversation with him like right after this all So talks to the random gardener and the gardener says, my therapist has been controlling my life for almost 30 years. 01:18:54 This is not his house, this is mine. And Joe, as a reporter, is like, say more stuff. He says there's a body buried in the backyard. Oh, I buried a body. ah So Joe starts asking him all these questions. Of course, yeah. And Joe actually starts with the process of helping put together all of these paperwork and all of this stuff. Marty shows him the breakup letter. 01:19:23 Joe stunned, of learns about all this kind of stuff and starts Joe starts seeking out other patients of Dr. I because Marty is not that's been the question the whole time is like theoretically he's doing this with more people, but at the same time he's investing so much time in this. It's like does he how could he have any other clients? Well, there was a widow who says that Ike pushed her to disown her own children. There's a man who was convinced to leave his business to Ike and his will. 01:19:53 uh A family that said their son was encouraged to alienate siblings over therapy breakthroughs. And he uncovers this whole pattern of manipulation through Ike's entire career. This is what he's done to several people. I don't have a full count, but he's done this to more than 10 people, right? Yikes. And uh all under the guise of radical emotional honesty and therapeutic boundaries. And he's just gaining all of this stuff. So Joe contacts the New York Department of Health. 01:20:21 and he learns that complaints require direct patient action. like he can't file a complaint on behalf of Marty. Marty has to be the one who goes and does this. He also learns there's no current complaints that are open on Dr. I Kershkov. And so many of, because all the victims are afraid to speak. mean, like this guy has, it's also embarrassing. It's also really embarrassing to be like, Hey, by the way, I let this guy manipulate me for 30 years. You know? And so in 2012 with Phyllis's help, 01:20:48 Marty gathers all the materials and files a formal complaint with the New York State Department of Health's Office of Professional Medical Conduct, which is a lot to say. Yeah, that's big. But he includes his journals, the financial records, the power of attorney forms, proof of Ike signatures on checks. He's got photos from the parties. He's got statements from friends and former employees. And so this is a multi-year investigation that's now going on with OPMC, right? They're working on this investigation. While that investigation has been happening over, know, this whole like... 01:21:17 In 2019, Joe, the reporter, he releases the article about this. And I forget what's the article called. But he puts out this article about how my therapist has taken over my life, right? And in 2019, they start this podcast called The Shrink Next Door. And then it became a huge hit, right? So he's trimming his hedges. 01:21:46 yes guys listen to his story. He tells him the whole story and he's like we should start a podcast together and he's like and actually we should be business partners and you know it's kind of like possible like what is you don't have anyone to give your will to it's kind of crazy that you haven't thought about this before. Like what are you talking about? Like I don't know man uh 01:22:12 hold on. getting one more image here and he's like he's like he's like. Are you not convinced? Let me show you how cool my arms look how look and he's just got here. He's just taped hair to himself like he's clearly he's like. I know this guy's clearly dug the body up from the backyard and glued his hair to his her fore arms and so I even are man that's head hair. You just that's head hair to your arm. You psycho bath so 01:22:41 Hey in twenty nineteen the podcast comes out. It's a huge hit in twenty twenty one will feral and paul rudd star a pair in the shrink next door will feral playing marty paul rudd playing like dr. Ike Ike Hirsch koff, which I will say he's pulling it off and I don't know paul rudd does he's got the cool glasses. I don't know about his forearms though. Do have a picture of paul rudd's forearms like is it is he see that all right for arms? 01:23:09 I just need to know if like he's kind of he is a Kansas City man. I do know that if there's one thing I know about Kansas City man, they're pretty bald, they're pretty bald, so that's unfortunate. So the this came out in twenty twenty one in April of twenty twenty one. I actually don't remember if this came out first or after, but they never talked since like a since he sent that letter in twenty ten. Yeah, they never saw each other, never talked in April twenty twenty one. 01:23:38 The Department of Health concluded their case and they found Dr. Isaac Hershkov guilty of gross negligence, moral unfitness, exercising undue influence over a patient, violating boundaries between psychiatrist and client, and financial exploitation. His medical license was officially revoked and he's not allowed to do this anymore. Yeah, cool, whatever, but I mean it's been what, like, since the start of this 40 years. So homeboy's retired, who cares? Does he go to jail? 01:24:06 or does he just kind of be like you can't be a therapist? Who cares? I've done. I did it. I did it all. I did it and I also got like nine people's inheritance along. That's I mean like I don't. I know if you to pay all that back. I don't know. go to jail or is he just because honestly like the more I don't think the end of this story, the more I'm kind of like I should be a therapist that you're like. Oh, he got away with it. Yeah, he revoked his license and okay. Here we go. He is 01:24:35 Let's see. um I don't know did Doctor Ike Hershkoff go to jail Ike, her cop punishment. Yeah, what is his doctor? He loses appeal for medical license. Now he's looking all these you know he's doing the appeal to get his psychiatry license back, but I don't know if he yeah. I don't know so the moral of the story, I guess is like take advantage of people 01:25:05 What was he look like now? Show me, show me a her scarf. I tried, I can't find some. don't have a doctor of him. I mean, I guess he's probably in hiding ah yeah. I guess he's like overseas somewhere. I do a picture of Marty. Oh okay, okay, yeah, he's just so ripped. 01:25:27 So freaking yo, this is this is Marty and his sister in front of their house where so Marty now lives in the Hanton's house. He lives in the master bedroom. Yeah. And he obviously has put Markowitz back on the mailbox. Is that his recliner in there that you can see? Yes, I think that's probably the recliner they fought over. But uh 01:25:51 Joe said that he was there when one of the neighbors asked if the doctor still lives here and Marty responded, no, I finally got him out. The doctor's dead. And so he and Phyllis obviously have been rebuilding their relationship. They have weekly phone calls. She visits regularly, staying for long weekends. He sends birthday cards to nieces and extended family. he did actually just this year in 2025, he closed down the fabric store. Oh, interesting. Oh, in 2023, I didn't know this, he started, and I can't believe this, 01:26:21 sort of beekeeping sweet, you know, interesting because he was, know what? I've had someone take control of me. I would like the little village of bees that I can control and I'll do their whole thing and I get angry. I can kill one of them. They have. They have not had interaction. You know, interesting. So dug up the the cow. The cow is still buried in the backyard is like for him. That's part of the honestly 01:26:49 love the. I love the idea that that's not in the sellers disclosure that he probably passes away sometime soon. The house is sold. They forget to disclose that there's a cow buried in the backyard. Yeah, the new owners move in finder doing some landscaping. They're digging. They're like oh, there's something big under here. They keep digging and there's a full cow statue buried in our backyard. So we to call a police 01:27:17 Do we to tell someone one more quick thing when Marty first moved into this house when he first bought it and he planted a tree in the backyard in memory of his parents and Ike was like hey, that's you living the past. Yeah. Hey, I don't like that tree that tree made him tear down the tree. Oh, what a that was also a big breaking point. That sucks. So now when he moved back when he got Ike out, he planted two new oak trees, one for his mom, one for his dad, one for Ike and one for Ike just to remember him. 01:27:45 uh But after the podcast, he doesn't do public interviews. doesn't do, because he said that he all, everything he needs to say. And Joe Nacero concluded his article by saying this, that Marty didn't just escape, he re-emerged. That's a rare thing. Most people never get back what they lost, but Marty, Marty started planting trees. So Marty is living happily out the rest of his life in the Hamptons without Dr. I. Kershkov. Very cool. 01:28:12 So that's a crazy story. I can't wait to find the documentary 15 years from now when you realize what I've done to you. uh 01:28:22 Nice. Oh shoot. One more thing. So there is the cow in the backyard and so that's yeah, I think they have to disclose that if they sell it. um They also have to say like, in the atrium upstairs, just so you know, who awkward there, the devil message to me on Instagram, we formed a relationship. He took control of me for 30 years and then we in the upstairs bedroom had a fiddle off, the fiddle off in the bedroom. 01:29:03 Hey, thanks for being here for this episode of things on the last night. I don't know if you saw Tim have a stroke, but we appreciate you listen to this episode and if you want to let you want more like it, there's another doctor who had some you know, questionable stuff now practice malpractice. Yeah John R Brinkley. We did the episode. This is the guy who thought goat glands were basically a cure for everything and would just insert them inside of people surgically, which it does help you. Actually, if you ever like man, I got a cold shove some 01:29:33 goat glands in your throat. Yeah, yes, so you can go check out that episode and I'm honestly more importantly, please share this with somebody. Please share the show, get that word out. 01:29:44 and and then we'll see you next week on our things on last night. Yeah and if you want to see next week's episode right now, you can do that by becoming a patriot supporter. Our patrons get every episode of ad free a week early. They also get access to a discord with our hosts and producers and our patron supporters get invited to our exclusive Hampton parties. Yes, where you'll be forced to wear green polos and serve our other those that are more important than you. 01:30:09 way more important, like more important and none more important yeah, just healthier and because you were because your family is because your family doesn't party is OJ Simpson impersonators. We have a hundred of J Simpson in Perth, Senators in the backyard of the South Ampens. There are OJ other are. Is this something that people do? uh 01:30:39 in person. Yeah, what's the rate how how much honestly if you become a patron you can help us get a bunch of oj simpson impersonators to a party in the south amtas and you can know that you made that possible. I don't know like what that does for you. You at least see the video with a bunch of impersonators in one place. Yeah, he's finding some he's got an instagram pulled up. That looks just like that's crazy. 01:31:09 It looks like the only guy doing it is a guy named Cuba Gooding Jr. What Cuba Gooding Jr. That sounds like a real like is that an actor. I feel like I've heard that name. He's an OJ Simpson impersonator. Yeah, 01:31:30 out. Yeah, that is an actor. That's a famous actor. His rate is late in a movie. His rates a lot, but we have the same agent yeah, so