Gua Kellogg – A Pioneering Tale of Human-Chimpanzee Interaction in Psychology


Episode Transcription

Made by robots for robots. Only read if you’re weird.

Jaron Myers 0:00 Hey man, what's the rub? Dude? Tim Stone 0:04 You for that? I don't know. I still don't know why I said that. I don't either. I've been saying it a lot lately. So here's the rub. Have you ever heard of Louella and with rope Kellogg? Jaron Myers 0:18 What are we doing his brothers? Tim Stone 0:19 They're actually on Kellogg not related at all. Okay, which I really wish they were and honestly, when you hear this story, you checks out. Jaron Myers 0:28 Leaders. How do they nail that dude? No way. Are you lying? I guess in a sense, somewhat, Hey, call on it's like, because when he goes, it's not a call. That's different than when he goes Yes. As you're 100% you're so close. Because that's when he goes. Tim Stone 0:52 Yeah, it's not a call it it's a podcast. Jaron Myers 0:57 That's our merch. Tim Stone 1:02 Yeah, sorry. Can you put Google on the phone for a second? Jaron Myers 1:23 Things I Learned last night? Tim Stone 1:33 No, okay. So Jaron Myers 1:33 these, this was a couple Tim Stone 1:35 Louella and with rope, Kellogg, they were married. They met in college, and they were science. Jaron Myers 1:45 Science School. Okay, what they do at Science School. So they've. Tim Stone 1:54 And Winthrop was really interested in the nature versus nurture discussion. And so during his master's, he kind of put together his whole master's thesis on how you would test whether it was nature or nurture. 19 The 1920s Jaron Myers 2:11 You got to separate twins. Well, Tim Stone 2:14 close. He said, You got to start a cult. That's not what he said. But he put together this whole thesis of how he would do it. And what he wanted to do was he said, if we could raise a child, and monitor that child from infancy, and see how they grow up, and then raise another child, from infancy and see how that child grows up and monitor that child from infancy. But the twist is that second child is a chimpanzee. Jaron Myers 2:46 All right, I mean, the results will work out, huh, he said we'll see is that we say if it really is nurture over nature, we should be able to raise that chimpanzee to be a pretty human, a chimpanzee. That's what year was this? is late, like the late 1920s. Gosh, I wish I was I wish I lived back then. Because it's so much easier to get into science school. They let that guy in. They were like, That's a good thought. It's Tim Stone 3:12 such a good idea. So he puts together this thesis. He doesn't get to actually do the experiment, though, is just a theoretical thing. Okay. And they were like, Yeah, sure. This passes, whatever. Okay, yeah, you get a degree for this. All right. Jaron Myers 3:30 Can you get a job science boy, Tim Stone 3:33 happy science school, I Jaron Myers 3:34 guess. Happy Science School. Tim Stone 3:37 He went on to be Bill Nye. Now he so him and his wife got married. And then they moved to any one of their names Thelma and Louise Louella. And Winthrop, Walla Walla, and went went thrown through. And then they had a child, they named him Donald. And then they Jaron Myers 3:57 had another child. And he's like, here's my chance. Tim Stone 4:03 So then, when their child was about seven months old, they said, Hey, we could we could do the experiment. And so they go to Florida. And they find a zoo. And they ask if they could take home one of the chimps is Jaron Myers 4:18 a Travis story. Kind of, they raise a monkey Tim Stone 4:22 kinda kinda. It's not quite a Travis story, because this is, yeah, it's not Jaron Myers 4:26 quite the Travis story, because in this story, that kid ripped off a neighbor's face. That is crazy. That is nurture. They nurture that into them. So Tim Stone 4:37 they go to the zoo. Yeah. And lo and behold, the zoo in Florida has a 10 month old chimpanzee so right? And Jaron Myers 4:43 they're like, Can I have it and the zoo was like, ah, we don't like it. Tim Stone 4:47 She was like, why? And they were like, don't worry. We went to science school. And they said, Okay. Jaron Myers 4:54 Okay. So they took this chimpanzee Tim Stone 4:56 home with them, and they put together a plan For a big experiment, and I don't understand exactly what happened here, there's not a lot I was trying to figure this out. Not a lot of documentation on this part of the story. Yeah. I difficult Jaron Myers 5:11 poor to understand. That's hard board. Tim Stone 5:15 I don't know, if they were backed by any institution or an investor who funded this project. I think they just quit their jobs. And we're like, Let's study this for a while. I can't tell but it's 1930. They got this chimp and moved back to Indiana. And they every day would wake up in the morning. And they would arrays Donald and the chimp who's the chimps name was gua. Which sounds like they let the chimp name the chimp. Yeah, the mom chimp. Jaron Myers 5:46 Where do you want your name to be? Goo? Gah. Gua gua. Tim Stone 5:50 Okay, nice. I like that. Jaron Myers 5:53 Imagine growing up with a chimpanzee sibling. And like, it's probably one of the situations in Indiana where they just gotta like, the neighbors meet this family. Because like they're trying to nurture it, right? They're trying to raise it as a normal kid. Yeah. And the neighbors are like, and they're like, how many kids you guys have? Like, oh, we have two beautiful children, Donald and gua. And they're like, Oh, cool. Tim Stone 6:15 That's okay. Yeah, she's adopted. Yeah, we got her in Florida a couple years ago. Jaron Myers 6:19 That's awesome. That's you from Florida. So International, Florida. That's crazy. Yeah. And Tim Stone 6:25 she's not like the other kids. Yeah, she's a little different. Oh, Jaron Myers 6:30 what years is like the 30s? Okay, and then they meet this family that has Yeah, they Tim Stone 6:41 invite them over for dinner. The whole family? Yeah, bring the kids. They sit down at the table. All the kids are playing and they don't want Jaron Myers 6:51 flies into the living room. hits the wall super hard. Like sorry, girl likes to play rough. Yeah, no, Tim Stone 7:00 man. Good shot. Yeah, yeah, she punches like 220. Pretty quick. Jaron Myers 7:03 Ever play for the football team? Oh, this she asked for? She hasn't told us. We keep asking. She's not sure either. Oh. Tim Stone 7:19 Okay, so the reason they decided to raise Donald and gua like their siblings, okay. Donald is obviously a little boy who was a little girl chimpanzee. Jaron Myers 7:29 And they creators and stuff. She complains and she's older. She's like, none of the Barbies looked like me. All right, career, unrealistic expectations. Tim Stone 7:41 And so she, they raised them together. And every day they had like a regimented schedule. they'd eat breakfast with them together. And then they would go to experiment time. They would do a handful of experiments with the two of them, and then they would eat lunch, and then they would do some more experiments and they would eat dinner. They would take a bath, and then it was bedtime. That was pretty much their life for like a year. While they did all Jaron Myers 8:02 this. I mean, yeah, they're gonna be they're gonna be affording to pay for stuff. Tim Stone 8:05 Yeah, I'm not exactly sure how this that part of the story work because they had a very regimented schedule. It wasn't like they had a day job, but they were going to and coming back and testing this stuff at night. Like it was. Jaron Myers 8:18 Yeah, kids say late at night, I get home and run some tests on my kids. Tim Stone 8:24 Excuse me? Yeah. Oh, already. One of them's a champ. Jaron Myers 8:26 It's the 1930s. So I'm not going to ask any questions. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not really I don't care. I got other stuff to worry about, like I'm depressed. Tim Stone 8:37 I literally just lost all my money. So I couldn't care less about what you do with your chip. So they every day are doing these tests. And it's interesting, like a lot of them are kind of the behavioral tests like you would expect, where they're asking questions or trying to get certain behaviors out of them like trying to potty train like, human potty train the chimp, which actually works out pretty well for them. After about a year, the chimp. After about a year, the chimp learns a handful of human II things. Okay, so the champ will learn how to communicate that it needs to go to the bathroom by kind of a Jaron Myers 9:18 lifespan of a chimpanzee though. Tim Stone 9:19 I'm not sure let's see. But like, you know, have you played the Sims? Jaron Myers 9:25 Yes. Your bear is doing with that aren't you? Know you're gonna say so Tim Stone 9:32 females in captivity live to be 39 and men live to be 32 I'll say Jaron Myers 9:40 men. Males. Yeah, men is man. So So 39 I mean, like their lifespan is half so I mean, are they developing twice as fast as one? Yes. Okay. So one year for them is two years for Tim Stone 9:58 Yeah. So they started noticing Yeah, it was picking up certain things quicker than Donald was. It could walk. Jaron Myers 10:03 Yeah, it could walk. It could say it's ABC. Tim Stone 10:08 It could walk it could eat with a spoon that was eaten with silverware. Jaron Myers 10:11 I guess we can call it we can cut we can say she was eating Tim Stone 10:14 with silverware. So this is them training. Jaron Myers 10:16 That's a real that's a real monkey. Tim Stone 10:18 This is this is the two of them actually is children. Donald and the chimpanzees gorillas, okay. Jaron Myers 10:31 Donald looks like he knows. He's like, he's like, Donald looks like my sister's not easy. We can cut the crap, right? But I know that this is an abnormal situation. Okay, what's the next picture? They're both where their diapers and they're both when their diapers. Tim Stone 10:45 Little younger their Donald's feet are very dirty. Jaron Myers 10:49 He's got shoes on. He's wearing shoes. Sure. Yeah. Well, either way. He's got someone. Yeah. He's also wearing shoes. No. Tim Stone 10:59 Playing with a phone. You're masking painted fingernails. Jaron Myers 11:05 I don't think this is such a high quality photo. Also. No, it's the 30s That's not the phone they were using. Get this out of here when you put this in here for it's funny. Tim Stone 11:18 But yeah, so they're raising them. And yes, the chimp is developing a little bit faster than Donald is okay. He's able to eat with silverware. She she's able to eat with somewhere she is able to say like, communicate that she has to go the restroom Jaron Myers 11:30 is gender my champion. She, she will Tim Stone 11:33 like The Sims. And so like, you know, when the students have to go to the bathroom, and they like throw up their arms, like, ah, you know what I'm talking about? Like, if you take the door away from the bathroom. You don't? Yeah, that's what the chip does. And shows. She'll like start screaming. And like, then they're like, oh, it's it's bathroom time. And so then they'll take her to the bathroom. And she knows how to use the bathroom. And it's a young few month old chip. Okay, and so they train the chimp to use the restroom. They also were able to train the chimp to understand a lot of language, not speak a lot of language. Yeah, understand a lot of language and they learned they were able to identify that because at first it was just kind of tones like dogs like Yeah, right? Yeah, they understand. Oh, hey, that's uh, you're mad at me for something. But gua was able to learn the actual words. Because they would say amen. Monotones and she was able to respond in an appropriate response. bathroom. Jaron Myers 12:31 Bathroom. She would just pee on through through Yeah, it's through the Tim Stone 13:10 Hey, thanks for checking out this episode. If you liked this one, we got a lot of great past episodes that you can check out. One of my recent favorites is Frank Abagnale, Jr. It's the dude from the movie cast me if you can. And it's the story about how he scammed everybody into really big scam. There's one scam that's like the scariest of scams I've ever heard someone's scam. So check that one out. It's a fun one. I like it a lot. But thanks for being here. But they would say things like, they would identify body parts. Like they'd say nose and she would touch her nose. And they would say she would touch your ears. And so like she understood. I think they said that she understood 90 words, she could understand 90 words and correctly respond to those those actions that would be appropriate when? Okay, that's words. Jaron Myers 14:03 I mean, they get really when you think about it, we're all just trained to respond to words. Tim Stone 14:07 I mean, yeah, it's kind of the same thing. You know, we know if you think about it, all the stuff that we're saying right now is made up. If Jaron Myers 14:15 you think about everything that comes over my friend that was just completely conglomerate of things we've been taught. It's just a bunch of sound graded into our brains. Tim Stone 14:24 If we want if we decided to, if we decided decided, if we decided these words meant something different, they would they would just mean a memory. That was a professor at college used to say that. Okay, like he would be he'd Jaron Myers 14:35 be like, Oh, my middle school band teacher said that. So I mean, like that same intellect. No, it was. Tim Stone 14:39 Who was it? Honestly, Smedley? He would say he'd say, yeah, like words are just, they're just made up. He's like, so there's nothing as because people would be like, that's not a real word. He's like, yes, it is. And Jaron Myers 14:53 what you're saying is, he would say something incorrectly, someone would go that's not how you say that word. He goes, Yeah, it is. Me You know, he's like he's like, tell me what Toyota quickly is. Tim Stone 15:03 Well, his point, his point was his point was a word. It's just a set of sounds that that's what I'm saying. And he's like, he's like, Do you know what I mean? Now you Jaron Myers 15:10 go, Oh, that's a chair. But if we decide that that's now, you know, falafels we go, oh, that's where philosophy is over Tim Stone 15:18 there that's worth $200,000. If we just say it's worth one, then it's worth one. Yeah, Jaron Myers 15:22 that's exactly how the housing market works. Thank you for explaining that to us. So they're the cheapest. I don't like the words in this book. I really like the pictures. That's a cool one. Tim Stone 15:39 The chip is developing faster than Donald at this rate. And Unknown Speaker 15:44 the chip is starting to show a handful of behaviors Tim Stone 15:47 that Jaron Myers 15:49 actually can you pull it back up? Do you see Oh, goody follows come me. Terrain. You put that's on positive reinforcement. Tim Stone 16:00 That's nurture right there. Jaron Myers 16:01 That's all nurture that once you guys get in, tell us I'm a chimpanzee. We just shave every day. Yeah. Okay. Do chimps have to wear this podcast? Before we record? Jared comes in with one of those razors. Just shaved my whole body. I have to do it for you. He does it. Yeah, you haven't learned yet. That's what Patreon Tim Stone 16:23 is for. Hopefully we can hire someone soon to do that. Yeah. It's really in Jaron Myers 16:27 search of. It's on indeed. It's like monkey shaver. Search of tube shaver. Chimp. Chimpanzees have tails. Tim Stone 16:38 I think they have nubs. Okay. Yeah. I don't know that for sure. But I think so. Okay. I know they don't have tails. Yeah, evidently they haven't done anything. Jaron Myers 16:46 Chimpanzees and monkeys Tim Stone 16:48 are different. Yeah, they're different. Yes, they're different animals. Jaron Myers 16:51 I agree. But at the end of the day, it's all made up. It's all made up anyways. So if we decide they're called chairs the Tim Stone 17:00 chimp gua she starts she starts displaying a lot of characteristics similar to a young child. For example. She when she's rebel Jaron Myers 17:13 she comes home wearing leather leather bikes. I'm talking to my friend. She's on the phone, on the phone talking to her friends. Friends dead. Do know what it's like to be a chimp in the 30s. slams her door it shatters so strong. So she she like for example, she's tired. She starts to like doze off and like startles her awake. I don't know if chimps do that for a while. But that was something that they took note of. We nurtured that into her fear, anxiety. They're like, I don't have anxiety. We do though. Humans do. Tim Stone 18:01 She watched the stock market very closely. Now, she, they gave her a crib to sleep in. And she like really enjoyed sleeping in the crib. And then if they took the crib away and made her sleep on the floor, like normal chimps, she threw a giant fit. So she really came to enjoy the crib, which I think most living creatures would enjoy having a place to sleep. One thing that they noted is that she did create a nest in their crib. So she took a bunch of blankets and built a nest like a champ in the wilds there. Jaron Myers 18:33 So we didn't ask nature. Yeah, we teach. What's crazy is that the chimpanzee taught Donald that though. Donald also built in the kid share a room. I don't know if they shared a room. I know they were raised again. I don't know if they shared a room that does seem like a liability. Yeah. The principal calls home is like Yeah, Mr. Kellogg gua today bit one of the other classmates Yeah, we didn't we didn't nurture her to do that. Nurture that that's nature. Yeah, that's yeah, that's a natural sign. You could thank God for that one. You're gonna have to take it up with him. Let me give me a second. I mean, talk to my wife real quick. Hey, did you teach Gu what a bipedal was that it? No, no. Yeah, that's not our fault. Yeah, sorry. Can you put go on the phone for a second? You're in when you Are they homeschooling Donald? Well, Tim Stone 20:05 infants, their toddlers Oh, there's no school yet. So she is learning how to live like a human kid. Donald and and GEWA ended up forming a really close bond. Gua is seems to be a little closer to Donald the Donald is to go up. But Donald still is close with Cuba. They play together all the time. Every time Donald walks in room go, it gets really excited and runs over and hugs him. But it's like they're real siblings. Like there's a there's a bot a clear and obvious bond between the two. Yeah. And so they're doing all these experiments to see how they're developing and how they're growing up. And whether or not gua is in fact learning how to be a human. There are some early signs of it. But there's also some signs that she's still a chimpanzee. Jaron Myers 20:54 Like, like a wolf. Boy, what gives it away? Tim Stone 20:59 Well, like the nesting, Jaron Myers 21:01 and the chimpanzee appearance. Tim Stone 21:04 Well, it's interesting, you bring that up, because there's kind of two sides of this experiment. There's a side where they're watching their behavior. And that is something that probably makes sense to do in this experiment. That seems like that's the purpose of this whole experiment. But then there's there's the developmental side where they're looking at appearance. And there's literal notes we have of them. Jaron Myers 21:24 Were starting to look more human. Where they're Tim Stone 21:27 literally being like, yeah, go it looks a lot more like a champ than Donald does, like stuff like that. Jaron Myers 21:39 You were just science school. And you're in your Indiana home writing Gulas Tim Stone 21:43 face looks pretty monkey today. Jaron Myers 21:50 Somebody says, yeah, and then Donald looks like a boring old human. Tim Stone 21:57 Despite all efforts, gua is not turning into human Jaron Myers 22:02 yet, yet evolving, Tim Stone 22:05 evolving. Thank you. And so he's he's testing the actual development. So he puts together some questionable tests for this, okay. One of them. This is really bad. One of them. He decides, hey, I'm going to see how their bone structure is coming together. And so what he decides is the best way to test this recording or bones is he takes a spoon and he Thomsen both on the head and analyzes the sound that it makes and determines that gua has had it skull is developing faster than Donald scarless because it sounds firmer than Donald's skull sounds when he Thomsen with a spoon. And to also like, what year is this? 1930? Yeah, so there's not like, yeah, audio tools? No. Yeah, this is literally saying, Yeah, that sounds. Yeah. Jaron Myers 23:03 And also, yeah, what could go wrong? Where you thump a chimpanzee on the head? Or a child cares about? He's fine. Tim Stone 23:14 Yeah, so that's questionable. Another thing that is so Jaron Myers 23:16 durable, you know, like, you can drop those things. Yeah, Tim Stone 23:19 it's true. Actually, Jaron Myers 23:21 I ended up going about it, they're gonna forget about I don't remember anything I won't remember, especially after you drop them. Another thing that they Tim Stone 23:26 would do is they would sit at a table. Another very questionable thing, they would sit up at a table and then behind them, like right behind them, they would fire a gun and see how they reacted. Like gua was more startled than Donald or whatever. Donald seem to be scared or have the gun. Jaron Myers 23:52 Today, this is one of their daily exercise daily Tim Stone 23:57 goes daily, but doesn't regularly enough because you got to repeat the just see if the data is accurate. And so there, okay, so Jaron Myers 24:03 you're a chimpanzee, right? You're living with a human family. Let's reverse it. Let's say our chimpanzee family has adopted you as a human. And every few days, they're hitting you on the head with spoons, and firing guns behind you. At a certain point, you're gonna lose it at certain point, you're like, why are you doing bro? Stop it. Stop doing that. Tim Stone 24:28 I keep trying to tell you but you're you're speaking a different language. Jaron Myers 24:30 So this sounds like they were trying to nurture some really bad kids. Unknown Speaker 24:33 Well, what they're trying to Tim Stone 24:35 they're just trying to see how they react to stuff kinda it's there's a side of it, where they're just seeing what's the reaction to stuff there's other Jaron Myers 24:41 side of it where they give affection and and yeah, they're trying to raise them as they would their child while also doing some weird experiments. Yeah, yeah. But it's the 1930s. So who knows? Maybe this is how they would raise their child to begin with assurance like they could this could be like he could have been brought up. He's like, Well, my dad fired a gun right behind me every breakfast every morning. Yeah. And it made me unafraid. Every morning my dad would fire to bullets and that's when we knew it was time to leave for school. Tim Stone 25:15 Yeah, every night he'd hit it on the head with the spoon. He said it was the skull fairy. Jaron Myers 25:22 Do you think the tooth fairy? This is a random fraud? I had the Tooth Fairy haggles on the price for some of these people's teeth. You know saying haggling with Tim Stone 25:33 got bad teeth like it? Does he wake them up and Jaron Myers 25:35 be like, Hey, your skulls pretty developed. But you have bad teeth. This one's only worth 50 cents. I was gonna leave you $1 But this tooth sucks. And the next morning I kid says the the tooth fairy came last night told me fairy woke me up and was going back and forth. We negotiated for like an hour. And like Tim Stone 25:58 I slipped price across the table. And he's led a counteroffer. And then he's Jaron Myers 26:02 like, let me go talk to my manager. And I was like, This is a classic. And I could tell he wasn't a good sales because he didn't have six pack abs. I was like this fat to me. Fat please grab this fat. Sell me, dude. So anyways, Mom, Tim Stone 26:23 what I'm trying to say is you need to take me to the orthodontist, I need to get some more valuable teeth before I lose them all. I Jaron Myers 26:29 gotta raise my own value before I can expect someone else to see it. You know, how can I expect someone else to care about my value? Hey, it's me again. Thanks for being here for this episode. If you like what we're doing, it does cost us money to do this. And so just think about that. You know, that's it. We have Patreon supporters. And it really helps us to make this show possible. Honestly, we're so grateful for everyone who listens to the show. But there's, there's people who want to make more of it happen and so they financially support the show. And you get a lot back for it. You get our private discord where we chat every day we're hanging out and just getting to bond and hang out. We also do live zoom Hangouts for our Patreon supporters. You get exclusive merch, it's a good time, there's a lot there's a lot in it for you. And it's a lot enough for us because we get to know you better. You know, you're not just a number and a stat board or whatever. But you know, you're our friends and we appreciate you a lot. So consider doing that. If not, then you can listen to this dumb little ad, because that's how we're gonna get money from you. We're gonna leech from you either way. We're gonna get paid. We're in this for the cold hard cash baby. Anyway, here's an ad. How do you how do they get it though? Tim Stone 27:48 I realized I forgot to put a CTA in mind. Jaron Myers 27:50 Oh dang, we're Tim Stone 27:51 doing Yeah, Jaron Myers 27:52 they can text Tillandsia 66866 Thanks Jared so they're they're they're doing all these experiments to see how the kids are developing. You never thought about that. I'd never thought about that. One thing I think about is you know you're gonna finish that thought came up was like you know, Santa comes for all gives different gifts if you're good or bad, but the Tooth Fairy doesn't care. Yeah, the tooth is the yard school. Yeah. I want you to Tim Stone 28:40 use failure in his millions because he's got to have a lot of money to be buying all these Jaron Myers 28:43 cells but he takes him with the caps on him. So oh, Tim Stone 28:46 he's upselling these there's a there's a dark website where he's selling these tees. upselling silk Jaron Myers 28:53 Sell tooth? Yeah. Anyway, you want to buy some teeth. Anybody wants some ice? Tim Stone 29:08 So these kids are grown up together and gua is another interesting thing about gua is she she starts to learn some like mannerisms and behaviors too. For example, by the time she was a year old, she could open doors so she could walk through around the house and open doors and walk through. She also understood that light switches turned on the lights. And so she both would operate light switches. But also if she saw someone reaching for a light switch, she would turn and look at the light bulb. So she understood what was happening there. She also loved animals when she was really young. So if she saw like a dog or a cat, she would go and pet it until I think she's about 13 months old. She found a dog and the dog was running from her and she thought the dog was playing. And so she kept chasing it thinking they were playing together. But the dog was not happy and The dog turned and barked at her like really aggressive, and that traumatized her for the rest of her life. She was deathly afraid of any animal dogs cats over really birds and trees. She would like cower in fear and run away from any other animal. Wow. Which was an interesting behavior. nurtured that is a nurturer behavior. She, she would if there was another Jaron Myers 30:26 dad lend out the dog. Go get them. Yeah, that's scare this kid. Scared the chip. Yeah, they did it with the kid too. But the kid doesn't didn't remember. He's your dog. The kid actually came back and say with all the dogs teeth. care how bad that dog was? I just wanted to stay on this data you can talk I mean, I mean wait a minute. Are you a Ukrainian 28 year old? Baby was an adult. They hired a baby. It's an experiment we're doing. It pays 30,000 a year, which is the 30s That's pretty good. I'm a baby. They jumped out for bed and they pull them in the other room for its performance review. Go home. You're good. Like Tim Stone 31:38 I gotta be honest with you, man. That wasn't very baby of you today. Jaron Myers 31:40 I know. Dude. My real child kept me up all night. He's got a family at home you know. Story I hate I hate this bit. David Buss Are you think there's gonna be any chimps there? Oh. No, there any chimps there? What are the chimps like at that place? Huh? The What if there was nurture versus nature? Tim Stone 32:14 Gua whenever they would bring other other kids would come over gua would gravitate towards the kids and play with the kids like, okay, child. What? If an adult came over though? She behaved similar to a child and was like really shy and was awkward around them? Because she didn't have anything in common. She didn't understand the stock market yet. Yeah. So like the conversation is just bored her. So there's some things where it's like, Ah, she's kind of behaving like a kid. But then there was a plot twist. About 15 months into the experiment. They started to notice that they felt like Donald's development was falling behind. He was able to say a couple words, but he they noticed that he was starting to make chimp noises to communicate. Jaron Myers 33:03 No, yeah. So no way, Riley Tim Stone 33:07 and saying things in the same way that Google would because Google was developing a little bit faster than him. Well, I mean, there. And so yeah, so Donald was starting to have mannerisms and act similar to the chimp. But the chimp. And the chip did kind of act like a child as well, but they kind of influenced each other. And they were like, Oh, this is we don't want our kid to grow up to be your guy. So they abruptly overnight, cut the experiment short when they realize this, because they kind of freaked out. They're like, Oh, no, we're messing up our kid. And they drove back to Florida. Jaron Myers 33:46 Let her lose the chip. And they said, Hey, remember last year when we took this chip from you guys? You want her back? No, she can't go live in the zoo. So they let her Tim Stone 33:56 back. And they took her sadly, the other chimps killed her. No, not that not that. But sadly, she did get sick a year later passed away. And Donald gave her the sickness which is got life in prison for it. Now Donald grew up and I actually became a scientist as well was relatively relatively successful ish in science. I don't know how Jaron Myers 34:26 but he always had that weird tick you always get angry. You doing got that chimp in me? Tim Stone 34:38 So yes, they kind of prove their theory that there was some nurture but there was obviously nature to so they published this paper and they published it in like plain English. It's now they published it in plain English because they wanted it to be like Unlike Time Magazine, not in like scientific journals, they tried to make it like normal. So it wasn't what's happening, Jaron Myers 35:06 y'all. We raised two kids plot twist. One of them was a chimpanzee Tim Stone 35:13 hashtag mom. Jaron Myers 35:16 Dag mambi. Ma, che Shem mom's? Tim Stone 35:23 Hey, Jim mom here. Yeah. And so they did get picked up and got a lot of media attention. But not a lot of science attention. And the scientists were like, this was a weird idea. And also pretty unethical. So there's a lot of conversation that came out of that, where they're like, We don't like this experiment. This was a weird thing that you chose to do. And also very questionable that you just chose to use your actual kid. Yeah, in this experiment. And also, you didn't even need him. Like, you could have done the nurture side with the chimp without a child. Yeah. And then, but instead, you were hitting your kid on the back of the head with a spoon to see what his thought was developing like, so. They kind of got blacklisted from the science world. But they got pretty popular in the media. They were like, Oh my gosh, this chip was human. And you can see it at the zoo in Florida. For now for a little bit, so but yeah, that's that's the whole story. Their kid kind of kind of turned into chimp a little bit. Jaron Myers 36:22 Still, they nurture that into him, though, Tim Stone 36:23 nurtured it into him. That's pretty crazy. Yeah. They had to have some awkward conversations with their teacher. Yeah. And his boss and his wife Jaron Myers 36:31 he's never been out of and his kids. Yeah. Tim Stone 36:35 Hey, so listen, your dad is kind of a monkey. Jaron Myers 36:43 Yeah, but I mean, like, he turned out okay. Yeah, Tim Stone 36:47 he ended up being alright. Yeah, I Jaron Myers 36:50 mean, so like, you know, Donald grows up and gets married and moves out of the house and stuff. And the chimpanzee, you know, died a lonely death in the zoo. Yeah. Which is like, do you think they felt bad about that? Tim Stone 37:09 I don't think they felt bad about it. I think Donald did. They seem to not care? Like, like, just judging by this experiment? Yeah, they're pretty cold people. Jaron Myers 37:20 Jeez, man. Yeah. Well, when I was growing up, my parents had sent me and my brother right next to each other. And they thumped us in the back of the head. You know, and my dad would like do a couple times he go see if he can hear how hollow my brother's skull is. Yeah, there's not a lot in the nine a lot in there. And then mine sounds very like it's very full. Yeah, like it's his medical condition where it's much yeah, anyway. They sneak up on us and we've received some breakfast needs to sneak up and they go you know, it was like a high pitched screaming Tim Stone 38:08 thanks for watching. If you liked this episode, make sure you subscribe, leave a comment to outweigh all the Grifters. Oh, and then we've got playlists on the screen. You can watch the new videos if you haven't seen them. We have a massive back catalogue. So you should go check them out. And if you want to become a patron you can go to till to do that or buy our merch, whatever you want about it. Thanks for being here. We appreciate you Transcribed by

In the annals of psychology, the story of Gua Kellogg stands out as a groundbreaking experiment that delved into the intricacies of human-chimpanzee interaction. Join us as we unfold the fascinating narrative of Winthrop and Luella Kellogg, who dared to challenge the norms of the 1930s by bringing a chimpanzee into their home.

The Kelloggs and Their Unconventional Experiment in Psychology

Winthrop and Luella Kellogg, both avid psychologists, embarked on a daring experiment – to raise a chimpanzee alongside their son, Donald. This bold move aimed to explore the depths of comparative psychology, pushing the boundaries of our understanding of animal behavior.

Gua Kellogg: The Extraordinary Chimpanzee

Enter Gua Kellogg, an infant chimpanzee thrust into an unusual human environment. As she became an integral part of the Kellogg household, her experiences offered invaluable insights into the similarities and differences between human and chimpanzee development.

Living with Humans: Gua Kellogg’s Daily Life and Experiences

Gua’s journey unfolded in the midst of the Kellogg family’s daily life, where she engaged in human routines and interactions. This immersion allowed the Kelloggs to observe firsthand the complexities of raising a chimpanzee in a human setting.

Surprising Discoveries in Psychology

As Gua Kellogg grew, the Kelloggs made unexpected discoveries that challenged prevailing notions in psychology. Her behavior and language acquisition became a subject of intense study, shedding light on the nuances of interspecies communication.

The Bittersweet Farewell: Psychology and Ethical Considerations

Despite the emotional attachment, the Kelloggs faced ethical considerations that led to the conclusion of the experiment. This poignant decision marked the end of a unique chapter in psychology, prompting reflection on the ethical implications of raising animals in a human environment.

Gua Kellogg’s Enduring Impact on Psychology

Gua Kellogg’s story left an indelible mark on the field of psychology. Her experiences contributed significantly to our understanding of animal behavior, paving the way for future research and ethical considerations in similar studies.

Gua Kellogg’s Later Life: Unraveling the Unknown

Explore what happened to Gua after the experiment concluded. The aftermath raises ongoing questions about the long-term effects of raising animals in a human-centric environment, adding depth to the ethical discourse in psychology.

Join the Conversation: Gua Kellogg and Your Thoughts on Psychology

Your thoughts matter. Share your insights, questions, or reflections on Gua Kellogg’s story and the broader implications for psychology. Engage with us as we continue to unravel the complexities of human-animal interactions.

Conclusion: In revisiting the captivating tale of Gua Kellogg, we find ourselves at the intersection of psychology, ethics, and the unexplored territories of human-animal relationships. As we delve into the lasting impact of this pioneering experiment, we invite you to stay connected, share your perspectives, and journey with us through the captivating landscape of psychology’s evolving narrative.

Things I Learned Last Night is an educational comedy podcast where best friends Jaron Myers and Tim Stone talk about random topics and have fun all along the way. If you like learning and laughing a lot while you do, you’ll love TILLN. Watch or listen to this episode right now!




Gua Kellogg- Wikipedia

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