Episode Transcription

00:00 Hey man, hey, I'm happy to be here. Are you? Yeah, okay. I'm glad you said that. I needed the reassurance. Have you ever heard of stop looking at me like that? Have you ever heard of I Alex back me up on that. I was I looking at him a certain way. No, that's right. Gosh, you guys are gaslighting me right now. You planned this before I walked in. You're like, let's gaslight him today. Okay, I'm not 00:29 you're. This is one of those days where you came in here and you're in a mood and you just you were you shook up myself. You took my Celsius and you shook it up and you handed it back to me. What are you talking about? Oh my gosh, you walked in here and immediately you were like you're in a mood and I was like I'm not. It was the way you said hello to me, but but then when you go when you go you're in a mood. I wasn't and now I am. Now you're on your heels. 00:56 but then I go like then we start the I was like okay, all right, let's put it all behind us. What do you came in with this and then you go hey man, I'm happy to be here and go and you go. I'm glad you said that 01:11 I was like uh huh, and then you go. Why are you looking at me like that? Anyways, whatever have you ever heard of crack? What should we do to like couples counseling together? Should we do that as a bit? It would be fun. Yeah, we should. We should get a counselor out. We should actually my brother does need some group hours. So the three of us. Oh yeah, I forget your brothers hours and that made me trust counselors less because your brother is sorry terry. He's a I'm sure he's 01:40 qualified and I mean no, he's not yet literally right now. He's not all right. He's he's finishing up his master's. He's got three weeks left in his program and then he'll apply for his license so brother Tim to that's what they named him. You're right to so ah we should. I was saying we should like set up like a couples therapy for like a like a like a virtual with a counselor better help better help 02:10 we should do a better help. I this is. think this has actual like yeah, that's a good idea. They know look at me. Should we start over? Okay, fine, whatever. man, have you ever heard of why are you looking at me like that? oh Have I ever heard of what I've ever heard of crack is with attitude. What? 02:37 Have you ever heard of crackers with attitude? That's what I thought you said. Crackers. Crackers with attitude. CWA. Crackers. It's C-R-A-C-K-A-S. Crackers with attitude. Yeah. Have you ever heard of it? 03:01 I talking to my parents the other day and... and... Still had systems in place of like oversight at least. I they had oversight. They had the chief cracker. It was watching them. And listen, I'm not trying to be pro-CIA over here, but we are trying to be pro-smoking. Things I learned last night. 03:31 I know here. Let me show you the crackers without it. You tell me if you can figure out I under I know the reference. So here I know one of them heck. Yeah, this is Kane Gamble. Well, hold on. He looked first of all, he looks like a young penguin villain from Batman. um Do they call themselves this or is this like everyone started calling him that? I know he goes, but he goes by the name cracker and he started the there's a there's another person who's I'm with 03:59 Yeah, and so this other guy, this other guy's name is Justin Liverman and he goes by default, but it's D three F four obviously yeah, I'll T default, which is a pretty good forum username for two thousand. So it is a cool form username. Okay, any guesses what these guys do? I think that they try to do rap. Obviously is what it feels like, but I think that's, but the way that he looks like this 04:26 I based on the facial expression. He looks like this feels like this, like a kind of story where it's like they hacked SoundCloud or something like these are. You know, I want to think they're nerds. You want to think they're nerds because well, because I think that here's what I think. This guy's too hot to be a nerd. Okay, uh 04:50 So this this kid looks like the loner loser kid and sorry to this guy for saying that about him. I don't know a lot yet, but then the other guy go back just seems like the older kid. He's like probably three or four years older than him in his neighborhood. Yeah, who just like you know you were he was eleven. You were seven years old yeah and then that's you became yeah. Somehow we can sibling type relationship. Yeah, 05:17 and then he wants to seem cool. He desperately wants people to think he's cool. I think he's cool. You know he's got a he's always drinking Mountain Dew in a in a Mustang. Yeah, know yeah and he drives a Mustang and he does the whole thing. He doesn't know how to drive it. You know when they're driving and you can hear it be like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like you don't know what you're doing with this vehicle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so that's the vibe he gives. Other kid gives a vibe that he's a couple of years younger 05:46 and is just like a loser. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So you're thinking this is like a he took him under his wing situation. Yeah, but then he grew up to be a mastermind of some sort and the other guy is just a dumb dude. You know the ride accidentally, you know, like like the big brothers. guy, this guy looks like his name is Dustin. Yeah, the other guy looks like his name is Maximilian. Yeah, yeah. 06:14 I feel like I'm painting a pretty good picture that works pretty well. Actually, I do think you've kind of got their personas figured out. That's what I'm saying. So I think the best place to start Justin comes into this story a lot earlier than Kane does um again. I'll show you Justin is this one. Yeah, I straight up nailed it. Justin is the Mustang. I said his name was Dustin. That's pretty good. Then Maximilian and this guy goes by 06:42 Kane. Yeah, that's his that's his actual legal first name. He goes by cracker, but his legal first name is Kane. 06:54 is cooler. It's cool. It's way cooler than well. I guess what year is it because that also depends like the twenty tens cracker could have been cool then potentially depending on where you're at. So we'll start with Justin. Justin is an interesting guy. So Justin uh he grew up an athlete was really into sports played all sports uh and then in like I I don't know exact dates for what age he was here. I'm assuming like late middle school 07:23 he got really into runescape and he was playing runescape one night and he got in a disagreement with someone on runescape. I don't know what the content of the disagreement was. You're not joking. I'm dead serious. I don't know if this was like a trade that didn't go well or something in PVP. I don't know what happened. Wait a second, but okay, I think I know the story. I don't know if you know this story because this is a side tangent like this is kind of like a oh okay. Okay, yeah. 07:51 this is just a bit of the story. What do you think I'm talking about? I don't know if you're talking about the Falador massacre that happened. No, I have no idea what that is. The Massacre in Rune scape was a glitch in the program where the wilderness is where you can do PVP and killing people and then there was a weird glitch where suddenly one day the whole map was available to do that. Oh interesting and so places that were usually not you know PVP. Yeah, so 08:20 you know, a couple high level players started just kill or maybe they call it the Falador Massacre. That's hilarious and then and then there was there's several times in the game runescape like there's been Fowler is a interesting place in runescape like on the map because it's a free world location. Meaning you can go there even if you don't pay for the membership yeah and it is like the protest location. So like if things happen in the game, new updates 08:50 the economy gets kind of weird in the game. Go there and you protest straight up like players will have all protest. Yes, like okay, this is what they think of the change. No, they're not invited to protest. It's just like they watch. yeah, yeah, it's not a dev like sanction. This is what yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they see it happen and they go, they go, oh, hey, you know, everyone's in world to, you know, 09:14 filling up the town square in fell. They're egging the Prime Minister's house over there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, this is not that event. uh This is just a uh small squabble between him and another user. Okay, and the other user threatens to hack him and he's like you're not and so like they're arguing that I nailed it. I nailed it based on their images that I'm like okay, but that kid ended up being like like a super genius type kid who can just like has just it now. Not just just Justin 09:43 this is just Justin okay, and so this this random was he doesn't Justin's username on RuneScape default. Yes default as his username everywhere and yeah, it's his default username and so he's playing and this guy does hack his computer and was your past it down with that. Okay, you want to know my password? That's what I'm saying. So what was your password dude because I'll tell you mine. I can tell you I can tell you exactly what I changed it because it was it was very frustrating. 10:13 So my password, and this is not a joke, this was from like middle school. I mean, this was from as soon as I got on the internet, like late grade school to sometime late high school. Straight up, was Tim is hot. 10:34 who is Timis and who's Timis and the reason I had to change it is because we were at like a church event at someone's house yeah and my dad thought it was hilarious. He was telling everybody at this event. I was like that you can't tell everybody my password now I got to come up with something new. That's a good log of your club penguin dad dad. You can't deliver my password so when I was volunteering while I was working at the church, I guess someone was signing up to volunteer is what I meant to say 11:03 at the church that we had like a like a China like a sign up sheet. Yeah, yeah, this is that sunshine yeah and someone you we asked for their email. They just write it down. Someone's email was B words love country. 11:20 I love the idea of signing up for volunteering at the kids ministry with you know, B W O R. That's hilarious. Also, we're adults and I just said B words, whatever it is. Doesn't that suck? Yeah, I'm not going to tell you my password when I was a kid. I for real. was yours? Don't you remember 11:48 I do remember it. No, it was also to his it was and I don't know. There was a while in like two thousand seven. I didn't know what a G was, you know, and so like my password on certain things was like G unit, whatever that means nice and like I need you to find a picture of me a middle school or it's like dude, this guy was G unit. uh 12:17 that's it's like using unit for like I was like I'm a you. I think it was. I think it was a football coach called me a unit yeah, yeah, you know, because he didn't want to call me fat yeah it's stuck as here. Yeah, he's a unit. You know my football coach has called me. They call me stone hands because I couldn't catch it like it's like you got rocks for hands and it's like all four years. I schooled don't hands yeah and short 12:47 they never go short. They call me five eight, but they know they call me five. Ted, they said your yeah, your five ten anyways. Yeah, leave your passwords below in the comments. Everyone, comment what your passwords are. I think that's gonna. I think the auto system on YouTube is gonna be like. No, these are all passwords. Yeah, okay, so the certainly it won't certainly. It won't let you comment your password. 13:16 I don't see a reason why I want it. I mean maybe on YouTube there might be a thing that'll be like hey, that's your YouTube password. You're literally on YouTube and you just type. That's what I'm saying, but like it's a completely different. don't know. I feel like we should so I want it off it like I don't. I feel like you should just just try it dry. I have your password. It interesting what happens. I'm sick of paying for you, especially if you to bring me a try. 13:44 That's funny. Yeah, I've never heard of any system. Hey, do you want to support us on Patreon and then join the discord and give us your Netflix password? Because you can support us in other ways. 13:57 you know, saying like you could like we could, you know, yeah, this is my profile. That's my dad's profile. Now there's some podcasters I listen to and then that's my brother. Hey, speaking of profiles, what once you tell the lovely people what you did where you text me one time and you were like, hey, why are you still using our hulu? 14:17 What are you talking about you because you were like it's pretty bold of you to create your own because me and Reagan have our own profile and he goes. It's pretty bold of you and Reagan both to create profiles on my hulu listener. You should know it was that it was my hulu and Tim has a profile because I'm kind. I don't anymore. Well, I might still on yours, but like I had a hulu. I stopped paying for a hulu. You gave me your hulu password to log in for a nice. I forgot that I did that 14:46 and I and then you were like it's my hulu. Oh, Jared and regular starting to take up our hulu. That's pretty funny and then and then there's a profile there called mom and dad because I'm also you know, I meant the my parents are decrepit and old, so I take care of them now dude. 15:01 they're at the age where it's like they're know, Dima what it decrepit and all that's talking to my parents the other day and and is no context. No context that put that in the end of speed of decrepit and all that was talking to my parents the other day. Literally they were like they're like you're almost thirty two years old and I was like yeah, I'm halfway dead, but my parents are literally exactly thirty years older than me. Yeah, and so they were like, but I'm not they were like 15:26 Thanks. You're like your four were your four more years. I was like yeah, you guys haven't ate as many Doritos as me. guess yeah, you'll make it a little while longer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've expected one age and we're on a bit of a tangent right now. So I'm fine asking this. What age are you supposed to like when you go out to dinner with your parents? Yeah, what age are you supposed to start like taking care of the bill? Oh, I mean nineteen seventy five. What 15:54 it's not. It's not possible anymore. Oh, oh, you're saying that like that's gone. That's gone because I remember when I was a kid, grandma would come to lunch with us and my grandma never paid. You know, she was always just part of like, so what is there like? I mean, I think I think if your parents are retired, you probably should. Okay, that's good. Well, my when they come out to visit us, I usually try to pay as much as I can. Yeah, but then you know, then my dad still pays it sometimes. Yeah, you know, 16:24 Yeah, and then other times it's kind of like, you know, looking at dad and I'm like, what's situation here? I think it's highly contextual. Like I do. Yeah, I do think it is like, like what situation are you in? What's I'm always monitoring to see who orders more than I go. I think you're going to pay if you ordered all that like that one guy in college who kept it would be like, I forgot my wallet and then he'd buy everything on the menu. Yeah. 16:47 Kyle, Scro that one guy in college. Why are we protected on? I don't think you have a wall. Oh shoot yeah, I bet I bet I know you don't yeah no. So Justin's played Rune Scape yeah and this guy does hack his computer 17:15 and just like shut it down, turned back on blue screen. And this moment was like a revelation for him. He's like, wait, you can do that. And so he was like, hold on. And so he also, he's kind of an interesting guy because he was, he was a big athlete. Yeah. But he was also quite a bit of a nerd. And so he played like halo and super smash bro. I don't know more athletes. Yeah. Interesting. 17:40 He played Super Smash Brothers and Halo like competitively. I mean, like think about Dustin. Yeah, yeah, that's true. know, a nerd. 17:52 Yeah, pretty fit though pretty fit pretty. I'll say it kind of hot. Hey yeah, yeah, he's our friend. We can objectify him. We objectify him. We know him yeah anyways, so he's playing these distracted Tim got thinking about dusting Oh my gosh, he's like yeah, we're gonna get to but 18:17 early hair. Oh, get out of it. I say hello and for smash my wife's best friend's husband, also our friend, but like that's how we actually yeah yeah yeah. So super smash bros halo competitively like goes to tournaments, plays these games from same gamer and he's like he's like oh, I can do this yeah and so he starts like online learning how to hack these games to like cheat in the game to to win. 18:44 Not because he's like, he's like, it'll make me better at the game, but because he's like, he's like, I want to know what I can do. It's like a curiosity. Like what's what am I capable of sort of thing? And so he starts, he starts playing around hacking video games, like simple things like that. Yeah. And he's going down the rabbit hole. Long story short, he goes through, does all these little small hacks on games and things and somehow finds himself on like the, this is like 2007, 2008. 19:14 He finds himself on like the official anonymous forum and ah he's like, oh, this is, this is interesting because anonymous and I've never heard this. He there's a podcast interview where he kind of goes through this whole grand story. We're going to tell the day. Oh, and I've never known this before, but I guess anonymous had this forum and it was an invite only forum. You had to like show you were hacking in the world and then you would get invited. Right. But anonymous was an interesting place because there was 19:42 obviously the hatch is like what kill Tony is to you have to show that you're hacky in the world and then you get invited and you get let it yeah the these forms were interesting and I never knew this but there were so many people that were trying to get in it. Whether they were like the press or the FBI. Oh of course or the FBI. Yeah, I think they had a little bit of interest or just people who were just curious and so they would do things to get the advice and get in there and so there was a lot of people like quote unquote prying eyes right there. 20:12 And so what they did as like a security measure, and this is insane, you had to hack your way into the forum. Well, now the forum pretty cool. The forum was just covered in like disgusting stuff like 4chan level, like crazy gore, like crazy, like explicit images just to like get it to where people would open it be like, ah, and like leave. And then you'd have to like, and then you'd have to like sift through like layers of this just crazy stuff. 20:41 to find the actual hacking stuff. And so it was a weird thing that they did. 20:50 Yeah, yeah, you keep no, no, no, no, it keeps people out. It keeps you allows why we do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. uh They're freaking weird little sickos. I mean, a bit. Yeah, probably a little sicko, little sicko freaky sickos. 21:08 Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of things. I learned last night. If you like this show, we would love to see in our Patreon. It's a great way to financially support the show. We don't make money from this. It just helps us to pay the people who do make money from this. Like Alex and Robert, her editor, and maybe one day, one day me and Tim, maybe one day, but only if you join, only if you join, we can't wait. We can't get paid until you pay. Can't feed Tim's kid until you join. He's so 21:38 of an angel. 21:50 just it was interesting. He like went and did some small low level like operations with anonymous, but he did not like working with them for a couple reasons. One the gore well one. He was in. He literally says this in the in the interviews. He's like they were pretty cringe like they were weird about the things that they said. There was clearly like FBI like there was it was like dangerous to be involved with anonymous because it was so big that there was so yeah and it was like there's some 22:17 there's some undercover agents in here for sure. Yeah, one hundred percent. Who are you guys going to hack today? I'm thinking about hacking Osama bin Laden. 22:30 it was two thousand and eight like I about hello kids. I'm one of you with the skateboard. I just hacked Barack Obama. How'd you spell that with an accent? Yeah, I figured out a way to do it and so he's he does like some low level like little hacking operations there, but he doesn't like the community. He doesn't like the people. There was actually like over time he found out some of those people and he had a feeling, but over time he found out some of those people like ended up 23:00 joining Isis and so it's like it was a really weird crazy east, a radical community that anonymous was. What would you do if like one of your friends just joined Isis? It's kind of like it's kind of like how like like someone you used to know like becomes famous in some way and you're like yeah, I can't believe that like they did this and then it's like yeah, you're like yeah, I can't believe they joined. You're like yeah, I knew him or like and that sucks. Remember someone brings somebody up 23:30 and they go. Do you remember? Do you remember Joel? Yeah, and you're like um which which Joel, which you know yeah the one he lived like the floor above us and he had that room all the way down. You do the whole process of remembering Joel. Yeah, you're like yeah, yeah, I remember Joel. He joined Isis. You're like oh, you could have just said that and then we don't add the or you do the whole thing. You go. Yeah, he was super nice. I loved him. I loved that guy. He was great. Oh, you should say that you shouldn't say that and say that because he was not super 23:59 against. He was not super great, so he yeah, there's like he's in a sketchy online environment, which is the other thing too man. You know, I feel like there's at least less of those accessible on the internet. I think we've done a better job of like siloing it out. Yeah, you can't. You can't stumble upon that stuff like he used to that you used to be able to stumble upon some pretty dark stuff. I mean like you know, read it really traffic. It really keeps track of like 24:29 where these links are going. Yeah, you have to very know, should we go to those? That's what I mean. Yeah, that's in two thousand seven. It's like you could be on a forum for a video game and then click a link and now you're now you're somewhere else. Yeah, and like that does happen less. I don't. It's one of those things where I don't think what we have is better. Yeah, well, it is better than that. I don't think I don't think what we have is good. It's better in that way. I think it is better in those ways. Yeah, 24:56 because you could just stumble on that stuff. He finds himself in some weird corners of the internet. Yeah, we're saying yeah, but he doesn't like anonymous. He doesn't think that he He disagrees with a lot of their political positions. He thinks a lot of people involved are weird and he knows that it's a security risk. There's a lot of agents in there um and so he leaves and he joins a different group called a non sec, which stands for security. And so and this is something else that I learned researching this like I 25:24 had always been under the assumption that Anonymous was like the group, but like Anonymous was the biggest one and they took credit for some of the bigger hacks, but they also got credit for a ton of stuff that they didn't do. course, yeah. And what I learned from researching this is that a lot of these other ones that you haven't heard of actually have the better, more professional hackers because they don't want to be involved with, like it was too risky to be involved Yeah, yeah, yeah. 25:52 after a certain point. And so a non-sec was one of those and that he joined. And with a non-sec, he did a couple interesting things. One of um them, were kind of, they were hacktivists. So they saw issues they saw in the world and they would hack to solve those issues or really, or to like shine a light or do something about them. And so one of the things- Really? Yeah, they were on their computer, killed Josh. Still don't know what that was about. That was actually my password for a while. 26:23 I opened up Microsoft word. I thought I was signing it after my dad told everyone my password was hot. I was like I got a password. You're never gonna buddy ever again, and you ain't gonna tell anyone about that. Yeah, you can't. You can't tell me what you're my son's password is kill Josh, which is my other son, a one LL. 26:47 So one of the things that they decided to target was predators. Yeah. And so they got on those forums and they would chat with like same thing to catch predator would do. Right. But then at the moment where to catch predator would invite them over and say they would just get their computer. They would share images with the predator. And that was malware. And it would give them access to their system. They would take a copy of their system and they would just submit an anonymous report to the FBI. And he said we got a lot of these guys arrested. 27:15 because we were just catching them and sending them into the FBI. Crazy. And so they did that for a while. Another thing that they did was this. And this is crazy. But in the 2014, the what is Denmark? Danish. Don't look at me like that. Don't look at me like that. Alex, Danish is Denmark, right? What? I hate that you're pulling stone walling me right now. Oh. 27:43 Oh, the map tap guy doesn't know anything about actual places. Huh? Okay. Hold on. We've been playing about tab. It's so fun. You know, we've done too many things. You don't know where Denmark, you know where it is on a map. Yeah, but I'm, I'm, that's what I'm saying is I'm confirming if someone's Danish there from Denmark, right? I'm like, I'm pretty sure I guess I can Google it. If you're going to stonewall me, let me ask this thing that won't. Wow. So mommy. 28:13 turn off my computer. Oh no, you logged in. 28:18 My buttons! 28:24 Yeah, is someone from Denmark Danish? Yes. 28:32 I was right. I'm not dumb. was just trying to confirm. Is someone from Danish? Yes. So for some reason, Denmark in 2014, and I've got some theories of the Danes and why, because this was true of a few European countries. And my guess is that the reason this never happened is because I assuming legislators were just like, we have to, you know? But before this, before 2014 or 2014 in Denmark, there was no law. 29:01 uh prohibiting bestiality. And so Denmark became like a hub for this. Like people would actually travel for this. And there was like places like an underground like society of people who would do this. this group, Anonseq, thought that that was really bad. And so they hacked their websites and then they they hacked all their files and they published these files from them to kind of bring awareness that this was happening. 29:29 And later that year, Denmark passed a law to ban it because I the legislature, I really genuinely think legislators were just like, they didn't know this was happening. Yeah, obviously. Obviously that's legal. Yeah. They're like, yeah, you obviously you shouldn't do that. So then they pretty quickly passed the law to ban. So this is the kind of stuff that this guy's doing. Like he's not, he's not out here like stealing people's credit card information. He's like, right. Attacking things that he thinks are wrong and like bringing awareness to these things that are wrong or like bringing justice in like kind of a vigilante way. Like it's sure. 29:59 like a not legal way to bring justice, you know, right and so and this is still Justin uh while Justin is is doing this. He meets Kane right line and so Kane is another hacker and Kane's doing very similar stuff. Hacktivism Kane lives in the UK. uh He looks like he talks like this and like that's his like deep voice. Yeah, he's trying to do like a whole talk like this and you're like you, you talk like this. 30:29 But no, but no, no, when I'm on a video call with someone, you know? Yeah. So Kane and him, Kane starts this group, Crackers with Attitude, invites Justin to join Crackers with Attitude and their new hacking group, right? Yeah. And Kane's big, big like motivation for his group was like a kind of anti-U.S. military, really anti-imperialism. um He was 30:56 very against like the war on terror and everything that happened in the Middle East during that time and after. And so like a lot of what he was doing was broadcasting what was happening that most people did not hear about or know. So he was hacking these systems to bring those things to life. And so together, the two of them, they come together and in 2013, the Edward Snowden links happen. And this was something that really kind of 31:24 turned a new leaf. I think you could say for them because they thought this was very hypocritical. If you don't remember, we did an episode on snowed in. He was the one who did we do a whole episode on certain we did, didn't we? I thought we did. I don't think so. Are you sure? Pretty sure we might have mentioned him. I think we did a full episode of adverse known in sure. I you know which one of us remembers our episodes 31:52 I mean you, but I'm pretty sure Alex are you looking it up? No, Alex doesn't care right now. He's doing his other job. He's playing Rinsky. Oh, you know what? I'm mixing them up. We did Julian Assange, right? Snowden. I'm mixing them up. Okay. That makes sense. Um, right. Yeah. So Snowden leaks. If you don't know the story, I guess Snowden links leaks all this information that confirms what was a conspiracy theory for a long time. And that was the existence of the NSA and that the government was spying on 32:21 literally everybody and just compiling the data and then they weren't actively spying, they were compiling this data and then they were using it if they thought you were a terrorist. And over the years we've seen that the bar for being a terrorist has shifted so that way they can then access your data and hack you and see everything about you. Right. And they thought this was really wrong because these people swam in circles where their friends aren't in federal prisons. Like they met other hackers who have gotten caught and are serving multi-year sentences. 32:49 for doing the same stuff the government was doing uh for the same reasons. Like these people are out here like broadcasting bad things that people are doing, but they're not a part of this NSA. So what they do puts them in federal prison while these people go off scot-free and are like political heroes, you know? And so- And that's wrong. What? 33:11 Yeah, because like I put flashy lights on my car and sped after somebody and then they got out and ran and I tackle them and then I got charged with assault. I was doing the same thing. You're saying it as if it's like can you believe it? Yeah, I fully can believe that. Well, I think I think I think yeah, I mean like these guys were getting arrested for doing the same thing the NSA was doing. So like that's stupid and you're like, is it? It's a little different. It's a little different than that because 33:41 Because the NSA, like there was directors of Homeland Security were testifying before Congress under oath saying they weren't spying on Americans. Like they were out here publicly lying about the fact that they were doing this. That's a different thing. And then and then when it comes out that they're doing this, I'm not I'm not pro NSA. Let's be clear. OK, I'm not trying to I'm not trying to defend the government here. 34:06 I'm just saying like if you're like yeah, these people got arrested and they were doing the same thing. It's not crazy. It's like well no, it's a little different. It's fair. It is though they lied under oath. Yeah, they were still had. They still had systems in place of like, you know, oversight at least. I mean they had oversight. They had the chief cracker. It was watching them. That's going in the intro, right? Chief cracker. 34:34 uh So, I mean, I think what you're saying is fair, but they were, they were very angry about this. Yeah, of course. So the two of them, it Justin and, and Kane Kane. Yeah. Justin. Oh my gosh, dude. Cracker. Yeah. Default. The two of them said, we're going to hack the CIA. And so what they did was really interesting. They did a couple, a couple of things here. 35:04 first thing they did is they found the, let me get his name, the then director of the CIA, whose name is John Brennan, and they said, hey, he's the director of the CIA, so he's got a lot of very secure systems that he's a part of, but he's also just a regular person. And so they just did a data broker lookup on him and got info on his phone number and the... 35:32 provider for his personal phone number, which was Verizon. And what they did, and this is crazy, they called Verizon customer support. And when they picked up, they didn't pretend to be Brennan. They pretended to be a like field tech for Verizon. And they're like, hey, I'm helping this customer right now, trying to access some stuff, but our systems are down. Can you help me get in? I need some information for them to be able to finish this request. And this customer support agent was like, yeah, what's your V number, which is like the Verizon agent ID number. And he on the spot just 36:02 says a random number and it works. They let him in and they give him Brennan's email address. 597-2893. Lucille? Yep. That is me. 36:20 Okay. And so yeah, so they let him in and he's like, he's like, okay, what he's like, I just need all his data to be able to access in. And so he's like, okay, here's his email. Um, you have his phone number, obviously here's his pin number for his Verizon account. And here's the last four of his credit card. And so he's like, perfect. That's everything I need. So they take all that data. They got all that information. And now they go to AOL, which is his email provider still in the mid 2010s. And they do like, 36:48 They contact customer support. They're like, Hey, I'm locked out of my email account. I'm trying to trying to access it. And AOL is like, uh, yeah, to verify, we just need the last four of your credit card. And he's like, perfect. I got it. Here you go. And he doesn't say that. That would be suspicious. Perfect. Perfect. have that. Perfect. I've got that. Perfect. I know the last four of my credit card number. Yeah. And so they let him in and this is his personal email. like theoretically there shouldn't be a lot of nothing. Bunk cakes, but uh, 37:18 two of our newsletter was just nothing. One cake steamed technically still is. I don't send a lot of emails, but yeah, the brand is and I'll be honest. I don't remember why we did that. I think it was in BC. I think we were saying in BC, but cakes. Yeah, I don't know. Anyways, so 37:49 So they personally emailed and through his personal email, they find out that I don't know if this was a mistake or if he was a little arrogant or ignorant. I don't know, but there was multiple official emails he was sending. Yeah, there was personal email. Yeah, but it was also and I'm again, I'm not pro CIA. 38:13 Well, like in the early 2000s 2010s, like the email communication is still relatively new. Yeah. And siloing it out for like this is business stuff is it was harder to do that. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, he's on his Palm pilot and he's sending emails. Yep. Yep. And he thinks he thinks, yeah, it's secure. It's safe. Right. And so he's sending these emails and these emails are crazy. Like he's sending information about agents with their social security numbers, just 38:43 from his personal. Yes, so many emails making fun of the fact that George W Bush has the same name as his dad. It's so late that he's got his damn freaking weird like dad can't come up with a better name than George. His name is George W Bush W Bush W W Bush. So they 39:11 They get all this information and they kind of compile that data and then they call him on his personal phone number and here's a here's a thing about Kane. We haven't mentioned to get yet came a giant marijuana addict. Hi every day marijuana addict. Yeah. Yeah. You talk like a narc. That's a great marijuana. 39:41 and so he's this man is addicted to THC. Okay, buddy, we didn't get addicted to THC gum. He's this guy failed there, so he big marijuana addict. It's crippling his life. He calls bread and high out of his mind. He calls John Brennan, John Brennan, the director of the CIA on his personal phone number. Okay, and it was the two of them together. They were on like a conference call as they call him just taunting him. 40:11 They're like, I bet you want to know how we got your number, loser. then they start reading off his social security number. They read him his address. They read him his email. They tell him his Verizon pin. They're like, we own you. We own you. And they said, and I don't know if this is true. Like this is just reporting from them. But Justin actually said in that podcast interview. We could hear him crying. He did. He did. He said, he said, I could hear like a tremble in his voice like he was afraid. 40:38 Because he's like, who are you with? How did you get access to this number? 40:47 Oh boy. Am I sick? I sure do need Tim stones. Get well quick trick. And what is it? It's simply chug an entire gallon of orange juice. Wow. I forgot. And then this shirt reminded me, I'm so glad that I have this shirt as a public service announcement, a public health service to other people around me. Do your part. Get this shirt. 41:16 shop.tillam.com 41:23 Because he is the director of the CIA. And also the war on terror is happening. Yeah. And so like, yeah, like this very, very likely could be ISIS, Al Qaeda, like any national security agency that like could actually literally threaten his life. It's like it is, it is reasonable to assume he's freaked out by this phone call. uh And meanwhile, they are also doing these sorts of things to the director of the 41:51 of national intelligence, James Clapper, they get access to all of his information, pull a bunch of data from him, very similar methods where they just call customer service lines and just pretend to be someone who's supposed to have so they're hat. They're getting all this info just so I can understand their workflow. They're getting all this info, calling Verizon, calling the server, getting, know, getting address, getting phone number and then just getting super high and calling them. That's like part of the routine. 42:16 and being like we guys brother, we call you brother. I should be clear. The pain process is getting high. I'm him. Justin is not getting high. He's just on I am a and he's like sorry about sorry. He has a crippling marijuana addiction. He yeah, he's also on the call. He's like really sorry about this by the way. Are you paulizing for do 42:42 it's just like take my side. All I want you to do is take my side. I again really apologize for my partner here. We will use this information against you. Yeah, we're going to ruin your life. 42:59 we we we can and we and then you know and then you're just the director of the CIA being like um what is happening? Then there's got to be a thought too of like if these idiots found it yeah, who who could that's that's the bigger fear. I would have yeah for sure. You know they also do the same thing to the director or the secretary of homeland security, Jeh Johnson, which I had to look this up because I didn't realize his name was Jeh Jeh. 43:28 but Jeh Johnson, what his name was Jeh Johnson. Surely not. Yeah. Here, let me show you Je. This is Jeh Johnson. Hold on. I'll just take a screenshot of the Google page so you can say that. there an image of him? Yeah, and I'll show you an image of him with the Google page so you can see this that I'm not lying. Jeh Johnson. I did not know his name was just Je. I don't know if that's short for something. Ma'am, what do you want to name him? She's dying. Yeah, 43:57 She was gonna say, Jeff. she lied. 44:03 she's a die. You're the killers mom. She's passing out dude and you're like she's dead. Hey buddy, bring it a couple steps. Yeah, yeah, she's got stabbed at the What who by who the nurse, the nurse knew something about her. The nurse, the nurse had hacked her emails and found it one day. Your son is going to buy on every single American 44:31 What do want to name him? oh 44:36 and we're going to find out this is like some kind of you know important name. Yeah, we're going to look very real. Yeah, so he they hack it a judge on since actual home wi fi network and they're able to access anything that's open on that network. Yeah, one of the things that they were able to get into was his smart tv and so they hulu account. They created a created to hulu accounts 45:06 it was jared and rake cracker and default. No, they displayed a message on this on the tv just in the middle of the t that just said I own you and they started calling his house and being like being like. Are you scared and like so they were like taunting these like high ranking and he's like intelligence. I don't want to taunt somebody and they go. Are you scared and then he does like a liam nissan type thing where he goes 45:36 No. And then just hangs up and then just. 45:43 and then you follow him just walk to his car and he just drives to the office and it's just him loading gun after God. You know we can make a good movie out of this and so this becomes such a big thing because and this all happened like in the matter of like twenty four hours. They hacked into all these at the same time. Okay, okay, okay, okay, so then the government is like all of our like directors of our intelligence agencies are compromised. So they all put them in hiding like they all get moved across the country to different locations and are in safe houses. Yeah, security because they don't know who's doing 46:12 They don't know anything about it. Meanwhile, they pull a massive database, compile 31,000 agents from different federal agencies, all of their personal data. So phone numbers, addresses, email addresses, passwords, social security numbers, and they put them in this doc and just publish it online of all these agents. And then they find all these like personal, or maybe I shouldn't say personal, but like confidential documents that link these agencies. 46:42 to either conspiracies or weird shadow projects or, for example, things that kind of, I don't want to say blackmail, because they weren't trying to blackmail them, but like paint these leaders in a bad light. So for example, one of the things all these agents have, what's called an SF86 application, and that application contains contact lists of everyone you've ever known, all your work history and background checks. 47:11 and so in that background check they were able for Brennan, the director of the CIA, they were able to find like his whole criminal history because he had a criminal history and they published the director's which is cool right. They're cool at a lot of people involved in our government have like pretty expensive criminal history yeah and so they actually send all that information to WikiLeaks and WikiLeaks, but if you have like too many speeding tickets and that comes back then your boss could be like I don't like you. 47:41 And so all this stuff's going on, Justin is getting default, is getting very arrogant, because he's been doing this for years now. And he is successfully hacking the CIA and the FBI and all these like high level organizations. He actually hacks into the Miami Dade police office and just wipes their database and just deletes everything they have. He hacks into this medical school in Canada and he just wipes the database with all their student loan information. 48:11 which he talks about that like he freed all those people from debt, but there's definitely paper backups. So, but it's like he's doing all these things all over the place all the time of like these hacktivist actions cleared all your debt and the bank is like 48:29 No, no, we got it. So we got we still got him uh and so he he is getting a little arrogant. He he tells this story. uh He was interested in this girl that one of his friends had used to date and this is like real life. This is not hacking life and so he goes to him and does a thing you shouldn't do and he's like hey, hey, would you mind if I like ask her hey? I got your phone number 48:58 and your address. You want to go out some time? She's like, ah, he was you're going, you're going. So he asked, he asked his friend, he's like, would you mind if I ask her out and his friends like, yeah, but like he doesn't, he's not actually saying yeah, like yeah, he's like, they start dating and his friends like mad about this and Justin is like, to be clear, Justin has always been like super paranoid, super secure. So like 49:28 He has a Wi-Fi satellite dish that he actually uses to capture Wi-Fi. The way these work, you can capture Wi-Fi signals however wide your dish can catch. So he's actually, every time he's using the internet, he's connecting straight to that dish and connecting to a Dairy Queen a mile away using their Wi-Fi. then through that... Oh, the CIA found out that they got hacked by Dairy Queen? And so he's actually using the Dairy Queen. And then he's using a series of VPNs that he's routing through. 49:56 and then connecting to a botnet. like, it's like, yeah, it's a crazy chain. Yeah. And so uh he's very secure. His machine is personal machine. uh He, every time he uses it, he shuts it down and he's got a software on it that the second it shuts down, it encrypts the entire, the entire hard drive. And then when you turn it back on, you have to decrypt the whole hard drive. like everything he's doing is 50:18 incredibly, which would really reduce my screen time. To be honest, if every time I got a lot, I got a decrypt my phone. It was like a forty minute process. That's what I'm saying. I could really maybe I need that, you know, and so me from looking at my phone all the time. So he talks about it. He's like, he's like, really think like you skip the girlfriend part. What have yeah, so three things happened at once here and so he is talking. He's hanging out with that friend who's girlfriend. He didn't steal, but you know he's dating his ex girlfriend and they're hanging out one night. They're playing online 50:48 like Xbox live and they're drinking. They're having a good time and the news like us. They have the news on and the news comes on talking about the CIA hack. Yeah, and he says that was us and he halfway doesn't think his friends gonna believe him like he and he's he's also like a little tipsy and like just like no one can catch it like it's like a mix of things where he's like he's like no one's gonna know no one's gonna believe me. No one's gonna catch me and so he says that to his friend who his friend was like and his friends 51:17 I've got that he doesn't know about. I can get her back. Yeah. And so his friend puts in a report to the FBI. course. Meanwhile, I think the FBI was like tracking him at the same time. Okay. So they've got the confession from this guy, but the FBI was like narrowing in on him. And he says like that same week, I start to think my machine got hacked because like there was just some strange behavior. I've seen some network requests that I didn't recognize. ah And so one day he comes home from work and his life pretty much was go to work, come home and 51:46 hack. Yeah, he came home from work, turns on his machine, it starts the decryption process and when he comes home he notices across the street there's a black SUV just sitting across the street doesn't really think about it. He also thinks that maybe the FBI would start using like a Honda, you know, like we all know, like maybe switch from the black SUV plan and maybe start just doing a Hyundai Sonata, you know, like maybe 52:15 Yeah, look like a soccer mom, you know, and so and he also mentioned like earlier that month, the house across the street from him got bought and there was just these two guys like pretty much twenty four seven were just sitting on the porch smoking, watching his house, which is hey, maybe paranoia. We work for the CIA. Is that a job? I would like to apply for the job of smoking on the front porch all day. 52:43 It's a sweet tea and a cigarette. Yeah, I'm working. Sorry. Sorry, I can't come on. working. 52:55 Yeah. And so. 52:58 putting in double time. You got to pay me double for this. So this could be paranoia or this could be the FBI, which I and listen, I'm not trying to be pro CIA over here, but we are trying to be pro smoke. 53:18 it's pretty cool. It's pretty funny how often we're talking about this. I've never started cigarette my life. Yeah, he was all those kids outside the scene, C, I, C, N, A, am I right? And so he gets in. He gets box in his house, actually a pretty cool festival name, seen I, a scene intelligence agency. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that actually does kind of work. So 53:47 There's a line in uh a yellow card song where he says California, but he pronounces it California, because he needed the syllables for the line. So that actually works on a couple levels. Anyways. uh 54:02 Yeah, so he goes in, he turns on his computer. There's a story in the Bible where 54:12 So like, it really works on a bunch of different levels and you can really... When you look at the Hebrew... He goes in his house and his computer. His computer starts decrypting his hard drive. And he's like doing his thing, right? And the second it finishes decrypting, the FBI busts down his door. They come in, they raid the house, they take him, they arrest him. And so he recounts this event and he's like, he's like, I think that they've been in my machine. 54:42 They understood the architecture of it. They knew that it had to be decrypted. And then as soon as it was, now it's open. Yeah, they were waiting for it to be open. And he said, because they didn't take it. Because the second you unplug the power, it shuts off it encrypts. And so he said, they knew that. They came in there. They didn't take it. They plugged in. They copied the contents. And then they confiscated everything he had, including an external hard drive that contained his Bitcoin wallet. 55:11 because this whole time he's been mining bitcoin and he was a very what year was this adopter? This would have been, think, twenty. This was like twenty eighteen. I think twenty. Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay. This was pretty late, but he's he adopted bitcoin at the beginning. Yeah, so he's been mining. He has a thousand bitcoin on that, which at its peak was forty two million dollars. Yeah, and so they confiscate that and it's just like this. I'm sure devastating. No, not watching for its peak. It's a hundred million dollars, right? He's a thousand 55:41 Oh, I guess. Yeah. If it was because yeah, I did it right now. It's in the sixties crazy. So he watches that thing. We did our episode. It had just crossed 20. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he watched a lot of millions of dollars walk out of that room. Um, and he also knew like the whole thing happens and he knows he's got, he knows what they're going to see on there. Right. Um, and so he knew he talks in the podcast. He's like, he's like, I could have just reached over and just unplugged it and they would have had nothing on me. 56:09 But he's like, don't know how you're going to react when you have a bunch of automatic weapons pointed at you until you have a bunch of automatic weapons pointed at you. And I just froze. so they took me. Secret Service was there because someone had recently defaced Donald Trump's website. And so they thought I was the person who was responsible for that. And so uh he's like, I wasn't. And they found out I wasn't. But like the Secret Service was there. So he gets arrested. And here's the thing that's crazy about this. He implicated himself on everything. 56:39 because and this he's like, he's like, this was the dumbest thing I did. And he said, because it was kind of my arrogance and it was kind of like this like archive data thing. He said, I was under the impression that I would like to go back and watch my hacks. So I filmed all of them like on my machine. And so he's like, so I have video footage of me doing all of my hacks. Like he was like Twitch streaming it. He's like, what's up guys? Today we're going to get the phone number of the CIA director. 57:09 And so like before we do smash that like button uh 57:22 Yes, I'm a Verizon support person. 57:27 What should I ask him chat? Yeah chat. Yeah, I love it. There's no one logged in a jet stupid, so so they are able to get them on everything. They book them for five years. He goes to prison. Coincidentally, he goes to prison like right at the beginning of co vid and so so they did they confiscate his bitcoin. Yeah, they still have his bitcoin. He keeps asking for back. He's like you can take whatever data you want. That's like related to this and he's like, but like please let me have my wall back and they won't let him have it back. So they 57:56 took millions of dollars from them. Yeah, so the government was like that's ours now. Yeah, we're keeping this for sure uh and so they go through the trial. He get, he don't like that. He gets a lot of years and he gets five years in prison. uh After a couple years, he actually, and I don't know exactly how this happened. Like if he like relayed the information, but he leaked a bunch of information about how some things were happening in the prison system. And so he ends up getting solitary for that. And so he does a year in solitary during cove it. And because of cove it, solitary confinement rules like got kind of 58:27 removed. Right. So he spent 24 seven in solitary confinement for a year. And he said that messed me up. Obviously. So he's in prison. He was in prison for for five years. He just recently like just recently got out. And now he's on probation. And the crazy thing about his probation is uh part of his probation is a two year ban from the Internet. And so what do you do with your life? Like you can't apply for a job. 58:55 Oh, okay, okay. I see it for a second. It seemed like what do you do? No, but for real, like we live in a world that's so connected, like you need internet connection to get a job in the end. I guess when you go try to find a job, you're like hey, can I apply like yeah, just apply online and he's like I can't do that and they're like why I why ban well the internet? Well, you could. I think honestly this is where you go work at a hipster coffee shop, but it's like you just be like I just don't really do the internet and they're like actually 59:26 come on just start right now because like that's really cool. That's really sick and so so at the same time that he got rated in the UK, they rated cracker cracker's house. Yeah, this looked like an arrest photo. Yeah, and cracker is a teenager. He's still in high school. 59:45 and so they get in there. So they're like yeah, kids being kids, they're going to be kids. Yeah, you can't. The UK is like honestly, it's pretty sick that you have to United States. dude, nice, nice boys. My that was pretty good. You want to see around Australian? Do you want to see red? Yeah, we do that here. No, but you can't have a beer. Yeah, they don't want to be. Yeah, and so I like that you tried a little bit. There's a little bit of you couldn't commit to it, but you try you where you want to be. 01:00:15 I did. I did. It was a bad tried to fade out. Yeah, it was nice and so he got he got a similar like he. I think he did like a year in juvenile detention and then he got a ban from the internet, uh a temporary ban from the internet, which probably did him well, probably. He probably needed to get off the internet for that and so what I from what I understand Justin is trying to rebuild his life. It looks like he's trying to get into like finances his plan because he's like I'm never going to find a real job again and so what he wants to do is become a day trader. 01:00:43 he's like because I can't. I don't need anybody to do sure, and so he's got all the thing. He's a little bit older than us, like late twenties. All right. uh I the other night at my show. I was like yeah. You know, I did a chick-fil-a rap a couple years ago and someone went. oh 01:01:09 it's been it's been ten years next year. That's why I said a shut up. Hey, you don't have to talk about that. You don't have to know. no, no. Be quiet. No, yeah. So this is crazy. This was to to basic like Justin was a little bit older. He's early twenties, right? Basically two high schoolers hacked the CIA and the and NSA and FBI and Miami State Police Office. That's crazy. Which is wild and they did it mostly through social engineering, um which is bananas. 01:01:39 Wow yeah and then does this also like the lime wire time like now this was after lime wire. Okay, well, yeah, it was you know, I mean I just start yeah, starting yeah, that's true, but when this all stuff happened, it was like, but he's like also that time where it's like we were just pirating stuff. You could just download stuff on your computer and you get like crazy viruses and like we would download songs. You make playlists for your my space 01:02:03 Yeah, it's like oh yeah, dude. So you'd have. What did you listen to? Freaking it was silverstein the used like I was saying stuff that I thought made me look edgy. So I was being used to skate the fate under oath right. I just listened to fiddle music. Hey, thanks for being here for this episode of things. I learned last night. If you liked it, there's another episode about Joel Ortiz, who was a sim swapping scammer. He got arrested and he's he scammed like seven million dollars from people. It a really great episode. It's really fun. There's some really funny bits in that one as well. 01:02:32 If you want next week's episode, join us on Patreon. It's available right now and you get to be part of our discord and hang out with us. We do monthly hangouts and you can use a video call where we just get to laugh together and have some fun. So uh please, please, please, please, please, please share the show. Tell somebody about it. You know, we're having a really good time. We're gonna keep growing it and we're going to be here every week, whether you stay or not. So we hope that you stay and we'll see you next week.